mil-spec primers or not?

[stoky]

I use them when I can get them, but when I couldn't it didn't keep me from reloading. I avoided Federal for semi autos, based on scuttlebutt about them being soft. I've loaded for Garand, M1A, Mini 14, H&K 91 and ARs with other than mil-spec primers, never had a slam fire.
A match maven buddy says he's never seen a slam fire with Garands or M1As, but he's seen more than one with ARs.

 

[Blue68f100]

(OFF Topic) Blue, so may I assume a Blue Ford F100 is in your garage? There is what I believe a Green and White 1968 F100 for sale locally. I want to think it is an F-100 anyway. Sweet truck! </ OFF Topic>

Ron

Yes, F100. It's actually a Blue & White with all the chrome trim. In the middle of a resto-mod right now. Most of the drive train has been done (FE Big block), working on body.

 

[Rule3]

It wasn't till recently that the mfg started adding service rifles in their load books. So up till then all data was for a bolt gun. Bolts guns it does not matter as long as they do not pierce. I would suspect any ammo that you buy that has the NATO stamp use a mil spec primers.

Hornady #8 manual page 167, 223 Rem Service Rifle Data

Primer used Win SR. (Guess Mi Primers #41 were not the hot seller at the time of printing).

I have yet to see a box of factory 223 Rem ammo that says do not use in a AR 15.. MSR or Service rifle.

 

[wally]

Guess Mi Primers #41 were not the hot seller at the time of printing

More likely they were hesitant to recommend a competitors product.

I believe Hornady was started after he had a falling out with his partner Vernon Speer, CCI was founded by Vernon Speer's brother.

 

[Reloadron]

Hornady #8 manual page 167, 223 Rem Service Rifle Data

Primer used Win SR. (Guess Mi Primers #41 were not the hot seller at the time of printing).

I have yet to see a box of factory 223 Rem ammo that says do not use in a AR 15.. MSR or Service rifle.

Yeah and Wally makes a good point when he says:

More likely they were hesitant to recommend a competitors product.
I believe Hornady was started after he had a falling out with his partner Vernon Speer, CCI was founded by Vernon Speer's brother.

I have a Speer #12 Manual and go figure, the suggested primers are all CCI. This is a '94 book and in '94 Blount owned Speer and CCI.

Ron

 

[Reloadron]

Yes, F100. It's actually a Blue & White with all the chrome trim. In the middle of a resto-mod right now. Most of the drive train has been done (FE Big block), working on body.

Cool and enjoy it, hope it comes along well for you. I gave one some thought and my wife reminded me of the bike and gun safe. Damn hobbies!

Ron

 

[Rule3]

Yeah and Wally makes a good point when he says:


I have a Speer #12 Manual and go figure, the suggested primers are all CCI. This is a '94 book and in '94 Blount owned Speer and CCI.

Ron

Lyman just calls for SRP and Speer #14 calls for CCI Guess they are all behind the internet. and Hodgdon still says Win SR.

 

[Bart B.]

Large Rifle primers need about .020" deep dents by firing pins to go off.

I've seen 25 to 30 slam fired primers from 30 caliber service rifles. All had primers with fully dented primers looking like normally fired ones. They obviously received full impact of the hammer on the firing pin. And the bolt was fully closed confirmed by firing pin fingerprint oriented to extractor marks the same as normally fired cases. Therefore I conclude the sear-hammer engagement was not enough to survive the bolt slamming home at 9 to 10 fps chambering a round. The shock that caused was enough to disengage the sear from the hammer and the bolt was in battery when the round fired.

 

[Blue68f100]

Large Rifle primers need about .020" deep dents by firing pins to go off.

I've seen 25 to 30 slam fired primers from 30 caliber service rifles. All had primers with fully dented primers looking like normally fired ones. They obviously received full impact of the hammer on the firing pin. And the bolt was fully closed confirmed by firing pin fingerprint oriented to extractor marks the same as normally fired cases. Therefore I conclude the sear-hammer engagement was not enough to survive the bolt slamming home at 9 to 10 fps chambering a round. The shock that caused was enough to disengage the sear from the hammer and the bolt was in battery when the round fired.

Someone had to be playing with the springs or the disconnector for that to happen. Or if fully adj, did not have it set right. One set properly, it will not happen with quality parts.

 

[wally]

My limited experience with slam fires suggests many are "bump fires" especially if the gun doubles, or was a failure to keep the booger hook off the bang switch when dropping the bolt or slide to chamber a round. The exceptions usually empty the magazine like with an SKS and stuck forward firing pin or a 1911 with a weak sear spring.

If using pistol primers in auto rifle rounds meant that rounds would fire when the bolt slams home, then the BATFEmen could use this fact to outlaw nearly every semi-auto as an illegal machine gun.

 

[stoky]

It's left to their "discretion", so oligarchs needn't be burdened with nettlesome technical details.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Olofson

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I started out using CCI 400's in my Mini-14 and never had an issue. I've since moved to CCI 450's and of course no problems there either.

I fired a couple thousand rounds out of my AR-15 with CCI 400's and never had an issue either.

 

[Bart B.]

All the US military rifle teams shot thousands of rounds of commercial match ammo in M1 and M14 rifles and I've never heard of a slam fire caused by floating firing pin impact. Federal, Remington, Hornady, Winchester, Western Cartridge Company; all did very well.

 

[W.E.G.]

Use magnum small rifle primers when loading to 5.56 pressures.

Winchester small standard rifle primers and CCI 400's are considerably thinner than magnum primers.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

All LARGE rifle primers are the same thicknes (standard or magnum).

There are two types of slam-fires:
In-battery slam fires.
Out-of-battery slam fires.

The out-of-battery slam fires will ruin your day. Very hard to diagnose after the fact unless it turns up a broken or frozen firing pin. Most likely explanation for an out-of-battery slam-fire is a high primer.

Chances of out-of-battery slam fire can be greatly reduced by using caution during single-round loading. Don't just toss the round into the chamber, and trip the bolt with full force, allowing the bolt to slam full-force against a round in the chamber. With the M14, snap the round into the magazine, and let the bolt strip the round from the mag. With the Garand, keep the edge of your hand aganst the op-rod while CAREFULLY depressing the follower. Ride the bolt forward for about half the range of travel, and only then release the bolt to allow it to fully seat the round and lock.

As already noted, the best explanation for the in-battery slam fire is the force of the bolt slamming causing the (probably modified) trigger to release due to the shock of the bolt slamming. Here again, the chances of shocking the trigger to release on an M14 or M1 can be minimized by utilizing the single-round loading procedure I stated.

We hear about the occasional slam-fire with AR15 guns. With so many of these guns on the ranges, there are bound to be a few incidents. That said, there seem to be, proportionally, far fewer slam-fires from single round loading with AR15's. Not sure why that is, but it is my observation that such is the case. I have no advice for carefully loading single rounds in the AR15. You can load singles into the mag, and pull the mag on each shot. People just aren't doing that, and it does not seem to be a problem of any magnitude.

 

[macgrumpy]

I've never seen any proof that the Federal primer cups are too thin or too soft compared to military requirements and I don't believe that the cups are in any way less safe than any other primer cup, if there is a difference it's in the priming compound. When the experts say that a primer is softer they don't necessarily mean that the metal is softer, although it could be, they mean that the primer is more sensitive, the primer ignites easier than another primer. From what I've seen the milspecs specify sensitivity but I haven't seen anything that specifies cup hardness. The engineering documents for the cartridges will have information about the cups but since I've never seen them I don't know what they indicate. But if none of the documents specify cup hardness then the whole argument about Federal primer cups being softer is false. I do know that Federal match primers were used in the Mk316 Mod 0 (7.62x51mm) ammo for quite a while, I don't know if they still are but regardless it proves that rather recently Federal primers have met milspecs.

I've used Federal 210 and 210M primers in my M1A rifles for a couple of decades now and haven't ever had a slamfire. That doesn't mean that I will never have one but I feel pretty comfortable using them.

 

[W.E.G.]

I shot 5000 of Federal LARGE rifle primers in the M1A. Never had a single problem with those primers.

The problem with Federal components has been the BRASS.
Across the board, there have been issues with soft Federal brass.

Not all of the Federal brass has been unusally soft. But there have been an unusual proportion of incidents that have arisen from soft Federal brass.