Militarization of our Police Force

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well, you apparently want to play swat, I thought you might want to drive around with a siren too.

seriously though, I'm just curious what the logic is behind the thought that because the police have access to a certain piece of equipment, that you should also?
 
Hey,Art

Seems like I read that about the interstates as well.
Has anyone ever heard they were built with an idea in mind for folks to be able to travel more freely ,to be more of a complete and united country?
To help prevent or avoid the divided Europe situation after or before WW2.
Maybe the Balkins ethnic ,divisive breakup.
Sorry for the thread drift,but what role would a federalized police force have in a situation like this? Here in the Tn area officers are supposedly state certified and can cross County lines. some even go cross state lines.
 
I'm just curious what the logic is behind the thought that because the police have access to a certain piece of equipment, that you should also?

My curiosity would be what the logic is that says they should NOT.

It is no more legal to kill someone with a single shot .22 than with an MP5.

This debate more rightly belongs as a discussion of just HOW someone with a full auto gun becomes a danger.

And ....more to the point.....a danger to WHOM?
 
My curiosity would be what the logic is that says they should NOT.

The police being able to carry a full auto assault rifle and you also being able to also is as logical as you driving with lights and sirens because they do, or checking license plates on your way to work. The police are using a tool as part of their job. That in no way reflects on whether or not you should have one.

Whether or not you or I should have access to a full auto weapon is a constitutional issue. I believe I should be able to have one as a civilian. Unfortunately for you and I, the vast majority disagrees with us. But it has nothing to do with whether or not the police can carry them. The two things are completely unrelated.
 
BillManweh....NOW you're gettin warmer.

It has only been in the RECENT past that the "majority" has consisted of irresponsible ...uh...people.

Back when it WAS legal to own automatic firearms, more people knew where to find the bank than the welfare office or the lawyer.

We have a crisis in the ...er...population (and therefore its "elected" reps) not in the Constitution.

Unfortunately, our government has seen fit to export our jobs and fill the country with single moms, under"privileged" kids, and various DRAINS on systems that work when properly maintained.

This is as much a social issue as a legal one.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it......but if it IS BROKE....FIX the damn thing.

BY ANY MEANS.

:)
 
and by the way, all......I am NOT a ........"civilian".....retch :barf:

And I despise any who refer to me as such. I am a .... CITIZEN !

And woe betide the exorbitant pension of any cretin who refers to me as a "civilian."
 
While I think anyone who can legally possess a weapon should be able to buy any post ‘86 gun he/she wants short of something which requires a delivery system on wheels, is crew served, has wings or uses rocket propellant.

I do feel that as a cop I am more likely to “NEED†a full auto or select fire weapon than your average Joe.

But hopefully I will work my entire career and not even “NEED†my duty pistol much less something full auto or belt fed.


:)
 
And woe betide the exorbitant pension of any cretin who refers to me as a "civilian."

And, woe (whatever you just said) anyone who calls me "Shirley". :D
 
TheFederalistWeasel,
"But hopefully I will work my entire career and not even “NEED†my duty pistol much less something full auto or belt fed."

That, and I hope you retire unharmed with no BGs taking a pop at you between now and then!

S-
 
Billmanweh,
He should be afforded the same weapons only because he is also a citizen.

What authority do you think a policeman has that exceeds that of a private citizen?

Sam
 
I blame this trend on the war on drugs, which is an absolute failure. When are we as a country going to admit this to ourselves. It is time to end the war on our own citizens. It is wasting enormous amounts of tax dollars and militarizing our "peace" officers.
 
Billmanweh.....Wasn't saying you called me a "civilian."

Just venting to those elements who are fostering the term "civilians."

It has connotations of a certain degree of inferiority. It is a tactical ploy to divide the citizenry from more "elite" forces.

Or so it seems. Just like we have now adopted "terrorist" for "enemy."
I read an article in (of all places) American Rifleman referring to a GI shooting a "terrorist" repeatedly. In my opinion, "terrorist" is being inserted to make it easier when the "enemy" finally comes from a ....domestic....source.

Far easier to call up feeling of hatred if "terrorists" are simply those who oppose the authority du jour.
 
I don't have a problem with the word "civilian". To me, it merely means, "Not in the military."

With respect to the discussions about LEOs, "civilian" is easier than some convoluted phrasing to indicate that "He's not a cop".

Art
 
Hmmm, words mean things, but not necessarily always what the people who use them think they do ...

Here's some various dictionary definitions from various major dictionary sources. They range from 'modern', to as far back as 1828, so you can see the concepts have often remained fairly consistent. Also note the use of the word 'civilian' as a further definition of the word 'citizen' in two of the listed definitions.

First, Citizen :

Quick definitions (Civilian)
noun: a nonmilitary citizen
adjective: associated with or performed by civilians as contrasted with the military

NOUN: 1. A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection of a state or nation. 2. A resident of a city or town, especially one entitled to vote and enjoy other privileges there. 3. A civilian. 4. A native, inhabitant, or denizen of a particular place: “We have learned to be citizens of the world, members of the human community†(Franklin D. Roosevelt).
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English citisein, from Anglo-Norman citesein, alteration (perhaps influenced by dainzain, denizen) of Old French citeain, from cite, city. See city.
OTHER FORMS: citi·zen·ly —ADJECTIVE

Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English citizein, from Anglo-French citezein, alteration of Old French citeien, from cité city
1 : an inhabitant of a city or town; especially : one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman
2 a : a member of a state b : a native or naturalized person who owes allegiance to a government and is entitled to protection from it
3 : a civilian as distinguished from a specialized servant of the state
- cit·i·zen·ly /-z&n-lE also -s&n-/ adjective
synonyms CITIZEN, SUBJECT, NATIONAL mean a person owing allegiance to and entitled to the protection of a sovereign state. CITIZEN is preferred for one owing allegiance to a state in which sovereign power is retained by the people and sharing in the political rights of those people <the rights of a free citizen>. SUBJECT implies allegiance to a personal sovereign such as a monarch <the king's subjects>. NATIONAL designates one who may claim the protection of a state and applies especially to one living or traveling outside that state <American nationals working in the Middle East>.

• noun 1 a legally recognized subject or national of a state or commonwealth. 2 an inhabitant of a town or city.

1. One who enjoys the freedom and privileges of a city; a freeman of a city, as distinguished from a foreigner, or one not entitled to its franchises.
2. An inhabitant of a city; a townsman. Shak.
3. A person, native or naturalized, of either sex, who owes allegiance to a government, and is entitled to reciprocal protection from it.
4. One who is domiciled in a country, and who is a citizen, though neither native nor naturalized, in such a sense that he takes his legal status from such country.

CITIZEN, n.

1. The native of a city, or an inhabitant who enjoys the freedom and privileges of the city in which he resides; the freeman of a city, as distinguished from a foreigner, or one not entitled to its franchises.

2. A townsman; a man of trade; not a gentleman.

3. An inhabitant; a dweller in any city, town or place.

4. In general sense, a native or permanent resident in a city or country; as the citizens of London or Philadelphia; the citizens of the United States.

5. In the United States, a person, native or naturalized, who has the privilege of exercising the elective franchise, or the qualifications which enable him to vote for rulers, and to purchase and hold real estate.

If the citizens of the United States should not be free and happy, the fault will be entirely their own.
CITIZEN, a. Having the qualities of a citizen.


Now, for the word Civilian :

1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force

• noun a person not in the armed services or the police force.

• adjective relating to a civilian.

— ORIGIN Old French civilien, in the phrase droit civilien ‘civil law’.

noun (plural ci·vil·ians)

nonsoldier: somebody who is an ordinary citizen rather than a member of the armed forces

adjective
relating to civilians: relating to ordinary citizens as opposed to members of the armed forces

[Early 14th century. From Old French civilien “of civil law,†from civil “civil,†from Latin civilis (see civil). Originally referring to “civil lawâ€; the modern sense dates from the early 19th century.]

civilian [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
a person who is not a member of the police or the armed forces:

Ci*vil"ian (?), n. [From Civil]

1. One skilled in the civil law.

Ancient civilians and writers upon government. Swift.
2. A student of the civil law at a university or college. R. Graves.

3. One whose pursuits are those of civil life, not military or clerical.


Now, I've also often used the word 'civilian' to refer to non-L/E, non-military & non-Fire folks, too, but that's mostly a matter of work place related convenience, because just about everyone else uses the same definitions and distinctions (In & Out of L/E). The distinction of 'civilian law enforcement' versus 'military law enforcement' is also something that's been used often enough, and it's generally used to distinguish between ordinary (civil, non-military) L/E and members of the military charged with the responsibility of performing law enforcement duties.

I don't get too wrapped up around the axle about the common usage of the words civilian & citizen ... and, looking over some of the various dictionary definitions of the last 170+ years, it doesn't seem that it's been an issue for most of the folks enjoying the freedoms and rights of living in our great country, either.

I find it interesting that while I'm apparently still considered a 'citizen' while I'm a currently employed cop ... at least according to some of the definitions listed above ... that apparently I'm not a 'civilian', in the strict sense of some definitions, anyway.

How any of this has anything to do with cops being properly trained to use semiauto and/or fullauto rifles & carbines in the lawful performance of their duties ... I have no idea.

It certainly seems some folks want to limit the abilities of cops to respond to the threats posed by heavily armed suspects endangering the general public, though ...

Also, like TheFederalistWeasel mentioned, I'm probably more likely to 'need' any rifle issued by my employing agency, while engaged in performing my assigned duties during the course & scope of my employment, than I am on my own time.

I'm surprised this thread topic is still going, though ...

Law-abiding citizens, or citizens charged with the responsibility of law enforcement, we're all on the same side you know.

If you have a problem with the laws enacted by OUR legislators, on whatever local, state or federal levels (and apparently with the approval of a majority of people which make their desires known to the politicians that they keep electing) ... then this probably isn't a L/E problem, you know. We don't 'make' the laws, and we aren't allowed to 'judge' their constitutionality and legality, either.
 
Just venting to those elements who are fostering the term "civilians."

It has connotations of a certain degree of inferiority. It is a tactical ploy to divide the citizenry from more "elite" forces.
No it only has connotations of inferiority to some people here who seem to have an inferiority complex. Until I became a member of this site I have never come across anyone who felt the term civilian implied the person it was being applied to was somehow inferior.
 
Until I became a member of this site I have never come across anyone who felt the term civilian implied the person it was being applied to was somehow inferior.

Ditto ...

I always thought the use of the term was more a sign of acknowledgement and of respect of those people I'm sworn to serve.

It wasn't until I became a member of a couple of these forums that I learned some folks felt the word implied otherwise.
 
I wish to say I have no problem with the average police person. They are simply working within the rules given to them.

I do have a problem with a proposal for a national ccw for police folks and retired police folks only. I forget if this made it into law or not, but giving these folks a freedom I can not have simply because of their job seems to be very limiting to me.

I don't have a problem with the police getting surplus rifles at a great price.

I do have a major problem with the fact that I can not get that rifle regardless of what I would be willing to pay for it. Let me say legally aquire that rifle since many have talked about loss of property in previous pages.

I simply feel the police are given too much freedom compared to how a tax paying citizen is treated these days.

I am not trying to drag the police down to my level of freedom. I simply want a level playing field for all.

I personally like how barret wrote his letter when cali. banned the 50 caliber rifles that many police departments use. I believe he told one department it could be a little while before he got around to rebuilding their rifle. Or maybe he sent it back, I have not read the letter for a long while.

And once again let me say I am not about to pick on the rank and file police folks who actually do the job.

My problem comes from those political and union head police folks who often do not speak or vote the way the rank and file police folks would choose to do. And I can't forget to give the law makers thier due either, they seem to give the police some special consideration otherwise that national ccw would not have been such a big news deal.

As for the civilian vs. citizen thing, I think it comes from starship troopers by heinlin. Everyone can live their life, but if you wish to vote and have kids and whatever else the movie messed up you have to serve in the military to earn that right. I consider a civilian to be a tax paying goof ball who does not vote and who does not participate in their community.

I overall do not worry how the words are used unless they are both being used and one seems to rank over the other.

And I hope no one takes offense to rank and file police folks and how ever else I said similar things. I simply mean the folks actually out doing the yucky jobs.
 
Holy Crap ! I just read a couple pages and now jumping to the end to put in my 2 cents worth on the post.

Just because I am not allowed except under special permit to own full auto weapon like the M16 doesn't mean that I would restrict them from police use.

Why would I ban them from the police if I belive I should have the right to have one ? I'm not going to play the we - they game with the police and I don't want them to play it with me either.

Whatever they need , they should have - if the M16's they recieved were converted to semi-auto only and they feel a need for full auto then I would recommend they get full auto's . (they can use the switch ya know !)

I also recommend I be allowed to have one too - but that's a differnt thread .
 
Okay, let me see if I've followed this thread correctly:

Polcie are getting surplus rifles, which may or may not be capable of full-auto fire. Many members are offended by this, because they may or may not be able to own an equivilent rifle, and do not want the police to have access to something they do not, as police officers should not get special privileges. A slight tangent started on the issue of civilian vs. citizen. Bottom line is taht many members don't like cops to get special privilegs taht aren't available to the average person.

I, as a prosecuting attorney (D.A.) am a law enforcement officer by definition under Ohio law. That and $.75 can get me a bottle of Pepsi at the vending machine, if the cheap machine across the block is actually working. My "special privilege" is that I can carry a concealed weapon so that I can defend my self against the guy threatened to take my kids from me at the gas station because I actually helped Children's Services take his grandkids away from his son who used them as punching bags. All this and a paycheck that is less than half of what I would make as a lawyer in private practice, while people assume that I'm a crappy lawyer because I'm not getting rich in private practice. And let's not forget the privilege of those 3 A.M. phone calls getting me out of bed so I can go get a search warrant on a meth lab and have a judge berate me for waking him up in the middle of the night.

Folks, darn near every cop I've met in ten years on this job has been doing this work as a way of earning a living doing something that interests tham. If they can get a tool that will help them do that job, or make it home to the family safely at the end of the shift, I'm all for it. And, the fact that the Defense Department is giving it to them just means one less excuse for the bureaucrat running the department to use in denying the cops access to the tool.

Enough ranting and raving. Now I'll just wait to see if I get a second call telling em it's time to go wake up a judge. ;)
 
Given the drift of this thread it seen that many are missing the point here. Now that I have digested the 45 or so pages of this document below the issue is really a constitutional issue and less of If I can’t have one you can’t. Reading these threads go from ridicule of my original statement (The tinfoil hat and Cookoo smiles of DMF to agreement by some). It seems that our framers can also be considered the same light so I feel in good company there. :neener:

This is a well-researched paper that raises the question of the wisdom of keeping Standing armies, our War on crime, and the rising loss of freedoms and corruption of power. Responding with threads such as “You don’t like it tough†serves only to create further division and stifle debate.

There is a lot of research in this document that a lot of people may or may not agree with. I would like to get some attorneys opinion started on the material contained within this article.

Here is the link for people that have not read all the post.
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm


This article marshals extensive historical and legal evidence to show that modern policing is in many ways inconsistent with the original intent of America's founding documents. The author argues that the growth of modern policing has substantially empowered the state in a way the Framers would regard as abhorrent to their foremost principles.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT

The actual intent of the Second Amendment — that it protect a right of people to maintain the means of violently checking the power of government — has been all but lost in modern American society.264 Modern policing's increasing monopoly on firepower tends to undermine the Framers' intent that the whole people be armed, equipped, and empowered to resist the state. Many police organizations lobby incessantly for gun control, even though the criminological literature yields scant empirical support for general gun control as a crime-prevention measure.265

Nor is there much legitimacy to the claim that professional police are more accurate or responsible with firearms than the armed citizenry intended by the Framers. To this day, civilians shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year,266 and their 'error rate' is several times lower.267 In a government study of handgun battles that lead to officer injuries, it was found that police who fired upon their killers were less than half as accurate as their civilian, nonprofessional, assailants.268

Moreover, police seem hardly less likely to misuse firearms than the general public.269 In New York City, where private possession of handguns has been virtually eliminated for most civilians, problems with off-duty police misusing firearms have repeatedly surfaced.270 Los Angeles police have been found to fire their weapons inappropriately in seventy-five percent of cases.271 Between early 1989 and late 1992, more than one out of every seven shots fired by Washington, D.C. police officers was fired accidentally.272
 
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it only has connotations of inferiority to some people here who seem to have an inferiority complex.

I acquired my inferiority complex upon the enactment of the PATRIOT act and the suspension of my 4th amendment rights.

Course, as a gun NUT, I should be used to watching my Constitution laughed at.

:)
 
Ah, fastbolt-

I see yer point about just being a servant of the govt., enforcing the laws, etc., but (1) democratic don't make it right, and (2) at least in FL, the legislature is a notoriously cheap whore for whatever limitation on the liberties of the citizens the police organizations would like to have. Two that come to mind from lately are the laser pointer law and the handcuff key law.

I do wish the lawmakers would get the order of hierarchy right, and understand that we are their bosses, that they are your bosses, and that all cops should quit bitching about "officer safety" and about having to respect the rights of their fellow civilians, and stop acting in ways that guarantee that anybody with any sense of justice or self-respect, at all, will hate the guts of the generality of them, and act uh, "nervous" when accosted by one.

I have met some honest, prudent, human-like policemen, but they seem to be very thin on the ground lately, especially around here. The younger ones seem to me to be not very distinguishable from any other gang of skinheads, aside from having sovereign immunity and the right to carry deadly weapons openly.

A suggestion for those policemen with consciences and brains (there may be some): If you see someone obviously taking great care to obey the law, LEAVE HIM ALONE!
 
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