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Military Officers NOT Supporting the Second?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Titan6, Feb 7, 2007.

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  1. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    I am new so here so try to bear with me a little as I begin a serious rant. It all started on a visit to the sisters house over the holidays. The brother in law is off in Iraq fighting bad guys as a logisitics support officer and the sister as in the rear raising the nieces in Central Texas. I hear that the sister has gone out and bought a shotgun to protect house and home while the brother in law is away.

    Curious I ask about what kind and find out that she did not buy one, instead they upgraded the alarm to the house instead. Seems that there has been a big increase in assaults and break ins in the area with most of the male population of Central Texas off in the Middle East and now the whole neihborhood all has monitored alarm systems. So I ask "why not get a gun anyway" and she tells me that the brother in law does not believe in the second. WOW! I say this is from the guy that talks like he is several steps to the right of Rush Limbaugh and he doesn't believe in the second?

    Yep, I get several nods of agreement from around the room and some of the other military officers are fully on board rejecting the second as well. Guns it seems are strictly for police and military. These are company and field grade officers.

    So then I drop the proverbial bomb and say "If you are far right wing and don't support the second than the only belief system open to you is fascism." Could have heard a pin drop. And I really get some really blank confused looks. So I give a quick impromptu poli sci lesson and still get no where.

    So then I wonder how many others there are like that out there? If we are relying on these guys who have sworn to support and defend the constitution where does that leave us? Most of the officers I associate with do support the second quite fully and vigorously but not it appears all.... What are your experiences?
     
  2. K5mitch

    K5mitch Member

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    Well, I'm enlisted but it's all about the same everywhere I go.

    This past weekend I was relating my anguish trying to obtain a KS CCH permit being a VA resident in KS on orders. Got a lot of "Why do you need an gun?!"

    About a month ago I was complaining to a co-worker about my girlfriend watching someone else's kids in my house, when there was four firearms (two of which in condition one) readily available. I got the "only the police/military" speech.
     
  3. tank mechanic

    tank mechanic Member

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    I have only had to deal with officers and guns on very few occasions, mainly when having my CO sign off on the post registrations for my new firearm purchases . No real problems, mostly just a genuine dis-interest. Except for when I registered my Marlin .44 mag lever action. When he casually perused the form and came to the caliber portion.

    "44... Magnum?!" and then his eyes widened and he excitedly proclaimed , "HOLY CHRIST! A Magnum!"

    "Yes sir, a magnum caliber."

    "You had better be extra careful with that."

    "Roger that sir.":)
     
  4. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Hmmmm...forgive my ignorance, but does one not have to swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution apon enlistment or being commissioned as an officer?

    Two words describe those who swear that oath and then not support the 2nd Amendment.

    Oath breaker.

    :barf:
     
  5. F4GIB

    F4GIB Member

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    "Jawohl, Herr Oberst!" (heels click together).

    The Bill of Rights is a guarantee of individual freedom FROM the federal government. The framers were terrified of a standing army. Guess why?
     
  6. jrfoxx

    jrfoxx Member

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    Sindawe--ALL military (active duty at least) swear an oath to uphlod the constitution. I was just an enlisted squid and I did at MEPPS before even going to boot camp....(I suspect you were just being facetious, but just in case....)
     
  7. K-Romulus

    K-Romulus Member

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    I was one, too

    Back in the day, I was just like those guys (except an enlisted guy).

    In my case, the attitude came from:

    1) being brainwashed in a good way about the dangers of firearms (accidents, mainly)

    and

    2) being brainwashed in a bad way about the "need" to have people with guns under tight draconian discipline to prevent those accidents from occurring.

    Throw in some elitism about "The Few, The Proud"tm, and it is a recipe for viewing anyone unlike *you* as an idiot who needs to have his butt wiped because he can't handle even that. Now imagine how you would feel about this imagined "idiot" having a loaded firearm. Presto: what you were hearing.

    In fact here is a direct quote from ME back in the day:
    When the uniform went in the closet, and I was now one of those "idiots," well things sure changed.:D

    Even after my modest civilian pistol classes, I am a w-a-y better shot, more knowledgeable about self-defense tactics, and a bigger safety hound than when I was "in." And I qualified back then as a USMC pistol expert.
     
  8. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    It's not a Bad Guy thing, it's an ignorance thing. I don't know how you deal with it, absent classes taught to field-grade officers by generals. Generals--and only generals--get respect from these guys.

    I've worked with retired majors and colonels. They quite often never recover from the shock of giving an order and nobody pays any attention. These guys work their tails off to get to their rank, and aren't really used to any disagreement from anybody not of higher rank, or from anybody who's younger. Then they retire. Oops!

    I've always seen it as an elitist thing, inculcated by their training. What they don't realize is how little they really know about the world outside the military.

    And officers commonly don't get to know much about guns besides those used in the military, and generally "box stock" at that. Can't help but feel sorta sorry for them.

    My son spent eleven years in the USAF. He even commented how puzzling some facets of civilian life were to him after he got out. :)

    But while officers are in service, they're pretty much closed minded about civilian affairs--and ignorant of the limits imposed by the constitution, generally.

    Art
     
  9. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    Oh yeah, I'd say that plays a large role.

    Sure, military folks are used to guns, but in an incredibly regimented way. You're issued a gun by serial number, get it only when "you need it", kept locked up like nuclear secrets when not in use, kept _religiously_ separated from live ammo except when at the range or in combat, etc.

    In boot camp, I carried a rifle in drill for six weeks, but never saw what the aperture sights looked like until we went to the range for dry-fire. Despite my curiousity, I didn't _dare_ shoulder the rifle and look down the sights, because the D.I. hadn't told us to.

    The notion of just setting an AR-15 down in the corner behind the bookcase, with a loaded 20rd mag sitting on your CD shelf, and a loaded S&W .357 in the nightstand, comes across as madness to many military guys.


    A quote from an infantry LCpl I was working with during the initial Iraq invasion, when I commented on the Iraqis being reasonable for wanting to keep their AK-47s, same as Americans do:

    "Sir, I don't think Americans should have AK-47s and all that. What if there's like a civil war again or something, and we're fighting house to house? I could get shot by some civilian!"

    -MV
     
  10. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    My big concern is not specifically the brother in law. He isn't really a bad guy. My issue is with any kind of dissent against the constitution in the ranks. this is really a bad thing because you may end up with the military obeying unconstitutional orders. When this happened in the past bad things have happened.

    I have worked both sides of the fence and wasn't really looking at officer vs enlisted outlook just that those guys are the middle management for the military and the ones responsible for planning and supervising operations. Many officers I know are quite adept with firearms and some could not tell you with any degree of certainty which end the bullets come out of.
     
  11. Sergeant Bob

    Sergeant Bob Member

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    The military is governed not by the Constitution, but by the UCMJ.
    Its like my Flight Chief used to tell me "Sgt. Bob, we're here to defend a Democracy, not to have one."

    People in the military were civilians before they joined so, their views tend to reflect the views of the civilian population on the 2nd Amendment.
     
  12. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Titan6,
    The military is composed of people. They come from all walks of life and it's only natural that they have the same kinds of opinions that the rest of society does.

    We see the Second Amendment as meaning just what it says it means. Others in our society won't admit that it means what it says and the great majority of people couldn't care one way or another because it doesn't affect them.

    Why are you surprized that a military that's drawn from a society that espouses all of the above views on an issue reflects the same divergent views?

    Jeff
     
  13. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    Quote:

    People in the military were civilians before they joined so, their views tend to reflect the views of the civilian population on the 2nd Amendment.

    Sgt Bob is right. I went on actice duty as an enlisted man in 1967 and now am a LTC in the Reserves. You have pro-gun, middle of the road, and anti-gun people in the military, officer or enlisted. They all fit in one of these 3 categories to some degree (strongly pro, strongly anti, etc.).
     
  14. Colt46

    Colt46 Member

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    Odd behavior

    Many, many will tell us that our soldiers are over there protecting our rights. Yet not all of our soldiers are interested in exercising all of those rights. I find many cops with that same attitude about rights and who gets to exercise them.
    Could it be that they view the citizen soldier as competition to their profession and therefore suspect?
     
  15. RayMel1

    RayMel1 Member

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    Big Brother at work...:scrutiny:
     
  16. Duckster

    Duckster Member

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    I've seen it both ways

    When I was in a Infantry Units, it seemed everyone and their brother had POW's (Privately Owned Weapons), Legally and illegally.
    I do agree that the Our Military is made up from the population of this country and so is inclined to have a wide very of opinions. This goes with just about any subject and not just 2nd Amendment. I know alot of times we do things that we don't agree with, but support them because of our status in the service. We are professionals!!!
     
  17. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Member

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    We had a quote hanging in our EM club in our Armory, something from Thomas Jefferson about the importance of civilian ownership of arms. But my Nat'l Guard unit came from a culture with a strong history of gun ownership, and thus attitudes generally reflected that.

    Soldiers aren't that different from the rest of us. Their opinions and ideas will tend to reflect those of the culture they hail from. As such, don't be surprised to see a grunt from small-town Utah being all for gun ownership, but a tanker from NYC thinking Rudy's got the right idea.
     
  18. ForeignDude

    ForeignDude Member

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    I, Too, Have Seen This...

    I don't have an answer as to why it is so, but I have also seen my fair share of officers espouse views regarding guns that are pretty well in line with the Brady Center (or even more extreme). [For the record, I am an Army officer]

    In fact, I knew a COL once who believed that no one except the police and military should have guns, who lived in DC, and who was laudatory of the District's severe firearms regulations.

    He didn't own any guns, didn't want to own any guns, and I think he would would be perfectly happy if no one else did either. In fact, when I told him that I was a vehement 2A supporter, he looked at me like I'd grown a second head. The interesting thing in all this was that we had this conversation in Iraq, where both of us carried Beretta M9's. I, at least, found the topic coupled with the setting a tad surreal.

    So, no, do not be surprised if you find officers who are strong gun control advocates. Do not be surprised if you find officers that are the exact opposite, either.

    For those of you who envision a SHTF national scenario, my belief is that if the military was ordered to disarm the populace, the entire edifice would crack and a civil war would ensue.
     
  19. Stretchman

    Stretchman member

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    Don't know what happened to the video. It died on the screen that quoted the bible about the "Mark of the beast" thing.

    Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Why? Can't see how it ends good for anyone, but that's a whole other discussion.

    Anyway, all I really gathered from it is that there is something out there called the federal reserve, and that they have somehow gained control of the system by illegal means, and are now forcing us to pay interest on loans that they say they made us. But there isn't any documented proof. And the cost of these so called loans are being paid by the people. So basically, the IRS is out there collecting money for a private institution. And bad on you if you don't pay...

    They are also saying the dollar is worthless. Don't tell that to the IMF, otherwise, the world may come to the conclusion that the US is handing them a bunch of worthless paper for everything we're getting from them.

    There's simply one thing I don't understand. If all of this is so worthless, then why is everything getting done? Why are people being fed? Why are things being built, and developed? Why do we have homes, electricity, water, TV, cars, and fuel for them, and food on the table? What are all these stupid people up to?

    To get back on topic; it is sometimes hard for people who are in the Military to understand what it means to be a civilian, since they do not enjoy the same rights and privileges that a civilian does. Go easy on them. They are having it bad enough right now. All volunteer is great when the economy is so-so, but right now, with a war on, they're doing a lot more than the lon's share of the work, with no end in sight, and there simply aren't as many "volunteers" stepping up to do their share.

    They say only the military, and the police. Oh yeah, and the criminals. They forget those guys. And the wannabe mall ninja security investigator top secret dudes, who watch you and tell everything. Well, everything but the truth, that is. If Big Brother was really watching, he would see just exactly how many people were Bs'ing him, and I don't think it would really last anyway. Besides, biometrics is the answer. No marks on me anywhere. At least, not the mark of the infidel, uh, I mean anti-christ. Or something like that. right?

    Stretch
    Quit cigs 1M 4D 3h 4m ago. So far saved $210.76, 1,405 cigs not smoked and counting ...
     
  20. U.S.SFC_RET

    U.S.SFC_RET Member

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    Sergeant Bob Quoted:
    Those Officers Heads will roll if one of those rebellious "Gangstas" that are now coming up and getting into the ranks starts to capping on or off post. Some of the military posts in the Continental U.S. has had problems with gangs and shootings on post. I had a soldier witness a shooting just outside an on post club at Fort Bragg where a guy walked up and emptied a magazine into a driver who was idling in park. There are numerous incidents on and off post that spoils it for everyone. U.S. Military Culture if you are in charge, your head will roll, your career will be over.. In Bosnia we went full combat gear when the rest of the united nations didn't, why? Read the prior sentence. Kevlar, Flak Vest, 210 rounds Load bearing equipment, Gas mask and weapon and all of this worn in a compound! A Compound for 8 months!!.
    I never envied the Officer Ranks. One minute you are the golden boy and the next minute you have a mark on your record and you can't compete to the next higher rank.
     
  21. pacodelahoya

    pacodelahoya Member

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    Well, I don't know what they teach at OCS but as an enlsted man, we were not taught constitutional law. Only to obey lawful orders. The definition of a lawful order was ambiguous at best.

    Yes, we swore an oath to defend the constitution, but I don't think that as a bunch of late teens and early twenties guys and girls right out of high school that we had a clue of what that meant.
     
  22. MarkDido

    MarkDido Member

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    With all due respect, your brother in law may not like the idea of guns in his house. You're hearing his "he doesn't believe in the 2nd" position from your sister, not from him.

    As stated by some posters above, a large percentage of military people who are not in combat arms (some Air Force, Navy, and a lot of Army folks) can go an entire career and have minimal exposure to small arms. A lot of military folks who had no firearms experience in civilian life, carry that with them into military life if they do not routinely use weapons in the course of their military career.

    As a retired "squid" I had the great fortune of being selected to attend a 2 week Small Arms Instructor class at NAB Little Creek, VA back in the early 80's. In the Navy I was a Parachute Rigger, not a rate usually associated with small arms. I can tell you that I shoot a whole heck of a lot more now that I'm retired, then I ever did on active duty
     
  23. Delta608

    Delta608 Member

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    Sorry, cant forgive your ignorance....

    He has sworn an oath to defend the Constitution which he IS doing...How many laws have been passed that YOU DONT LIKE or changes in the Constitution but obey them anyway.... How on earth can you question his loyalty to his country WHILE IN UNIFORM because he doesn't agree with you regarding the 2nd...
    Let me see, he can die for your beliefs but he is not allowed his own... :banghead:
     
  24. Old NFO

    Old NFO Member

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    Just my .02 cents worth here, I'm a member at Quantico Shooting Club and also work with Navy and Marines worldwide on a regular basis; but I would say at least 80-85% of the folks I interact with are PRO 2nd Amendment and many officers and enlisteds that I know do have CCP's if the state they are in allows it. I know a couple of folks that turned down orders to Hawaii and California becuase they would have had to divest themselves of some of the "toys". You will always have the 10% that are rigidly programmed and will never get outside their little box at all, but the majority, once informed, become proponents.
    r,
    jim
     
  25. svtruth

    svtruth Member

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    Strikes me

    that their dislike of the Second Amendment is exactly why we need it.
     
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