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Military Officers NOT Supporting the Second?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Titan6, Feb 7, 2007.

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  1. spartacus2002

    spartacus2002 Member

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    Umm, that's like being a member of a swim team and saying "gee, everybody must love swimming, because everybody I hang out with does! Man, I see folks at the pool all the time..."


    I was a military officer for almost 14 years (finally got my honorable discharge last Friday), and I can tell you it isn't so much an anti-2A sentiment as a pro-control, pro-authority, pro-government sentiment. Not out of nefarious ideals, but simply because that is the world they live in.
     
  2. Old NFO

    Old NFO Member

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    Not really Spartacus, I DID quantify it to folks that I personally knew or interacted with, I did not generalize it. Most of the folks I deal with are 04/E7 and up, and folks that are routinely out on the pointy end as they say. I KNOW there are a bunch of JAG's, Chops, and Admin types that are exactly as you describe, but again, I don't work with them...Thanks for your service!
     
  3. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

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    I was pro gun before I accepted an appointment as a midshipman. My first exposure to a pro gun officer was the commanding officer of a diesel electric submarine who let his men keep their personal firearms in their bunk lockers. There wasn't enough room in the submarine's armory for all the personal firearms, so he told the men to keep them locked up in their lockers.

    My last boss in the Navy was a captain (O-6) and a graduate of both the basic pistol and shotgun course at Gunsite.

    Pilgrim
     
  4. Ohen Cepel

    Ohen Cepel Member

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    I think part of it is because the military isn't as much from rural settings now as in the past. Therefore, their views are more in line with a lot of urbanites that don't think you should have a weapon.

    It's a bit different depending on the unit. However, I often run into the same type of bias when talking with others in the service.

    That being said, I've know several cops who weren't "gun people" and barely even knew what maker made their service pistol.
     
  5. Barrel First

    Barrel First Member

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    "I'm a retired USAF officer and I can understand--even though I don't agree with--the position of some officers (particulary USAF) who are against civilian ownership of firearms."

    I can't understand it...and most certainly don't accept it.

    That sort of fascistic control is what our military is specifically charged with PREVENTING!

    I'm tired of these false excursions and half-assed excuses. Grow a pair and issue a condemnation of blatant violations of 2nd Amendment principles.

    And break out that copy of the Constitution that you got from your commanding officer. You *do* have a copy of the Constitution for ready reference, don't you?
     
  6. QuestionEverything

    QuestionEverything Member

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    No guns for the sheep, huh? We keep hearing "the military would never fire on Americans," but I wonder how much officers like this would mull over orders to smack down some "criminal, terrorist" armed citizens. Or unarmed citizens, for that matter.
     
  7. strambo

    strambo Member

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    I am an Officer and about as Pro 2A as they get, NRA life member. Wanna see my Molon Labe tat? :D If he's in the Quartermaster Corps...well grunts like me (really the enlisted SECFOR guys who shoulder all the load) will protect him on the FOB...until his convoy takes a wrong turn the one time he leaves the wire...

    That alarm is swell too...until she forgets to arm it, or an intruder hyped up on drugs just keeps coming and doesn't run away. Hope the police show up.:uhoh:

    I encounter this attitude as well...and fight it at every opportunity. Ironically, the military is institutionally mildly anti-personal firearms ownership in the name of safety. You cannot carry a firearm on post permit or no. You must register all firearms and must store them in the arms room if you live in the barracks. If in the arms room, you must request through the CO to take it out...with the reason. Hey, you sign up to protect freedom, not necessarily have it yourself.

    Now, to play Devil's advocate...there is a big difference in not personally believing that citizen firearm ownership is a good thing...and refusing to support and defend the Constitution. He made that choice for himself and his family. His wife can make her own choices as well. If he, in a position of authority in the military, were to subvert, or interfere with a US citizen's lawfull RKBA, that's a whole 'nuther thing entirely.

    None of our Guard members took any firearms from any civilians during Katrina...it doesn't matter if some of the soldiers may have thought the citizens shouldn't have guns...the fact is none of us ACTED to interfere with any 2A rights. Thus 100% of our unit supported and defended the Constitution on that deployment. If other units did confiscate guns...that is their issue (and the people's, lawsuits are already flyin') and call it what you will.

    Why the heck not? "All enemies, foreign and domestic" means exactly that...hopefully if that decision is ever made...they truly will be domestic enemies fighting against our Constitution in open revolt. God help us if it comes to that...or the opposite, a police state subverting the Constitution....
     
  8. VMI 1991

    VMI 1991 Member

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    Back in the Pentagon

    USMC Retired:
    I am a LCDR working for a USMC two star

    Thin Black Line
    After spending hours working on projects with a potential bottom line of over 14 Billion dollars, a little web surfing and some time on THR is a welcome relief.
     
  9. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    Sounds like ships with the really big guns.
     
  10. coyote_jr

    coyote_jr member

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    Actually, I keep reading "Americans will fire on the military" wayyyyy more :p
     
  11. VMI 1991

    VMI 1991 Member

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    Quote:

    Thin BLack Line:
    Sounds like ships with the really big guns.


    Big flight deck, but no well deck. Electric drive vice steam. A lot of Marines.
    No big guns, just some smaller ones for self defence.
     
  12. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    I've covered the 29 Palms survey here on THR. Everyone can get a grip and
    grab another cup of coffee without worry.....
     
  13. Dbl0Kevin

    Dbl0Kevin Member

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    I've had both good and bad experiences, but around here, even surrounded by intel people, it's been mostly good. When I arrived at Ft. Gordon I brought my 1911 and my Bushmaster AR-15 with me because I just refused to leave them behind. Well the runaround to get them in the unit arms room was a huge pain in the ass. I had to get signatures from my CO and then it had to authorized by the CO of the battallion arms room plus registered at the PMO. They all signed off just fine though. Everytime I see the Captain from the battallion though he always asks me if I want to sell my AR cause he wants it.

    On the other hand though, my enlisted platoon sgt, when we were talking and I told her what I had brought gave me this surprised look and asked "what in the world do you need an AR-15 for!?" I just looked down at my right shoulder and glanced at the American Flag on my arm then so "oh phew....just makin sure". :neener:
     
  14. The Amigo

    The Amigo Member

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    Officers

    I'm an active duty Chief Warrant Officer and remember just cause we in the military doesn't mean we are special. You will get all kind of different opinions from different persons. But i'm not afraid to say probably 80-90 % support having guns and the second. But there's still some bone head officers out there that might have a diff point of view just out of ignorance.
     
  15. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    I think 80-90% is extremely high for the military overall. I'd say it's far closer to the 50-50 that the U.S. as a whole has.

    Further, I don't think pinning the anti-gun sentiments on the officer corps is accurate either: the officer corps in the Marines is far more right-wing/conservative than the enlisted ranks are.

    A lot of it is just more authoritarianism than anything else; I've actually met one or two officers who described themselves as literal fascists, in that they believe the role of government is to moderate between all other civil entities, and that the national interest supercedes individual well-being.

    -MV
     
  16. PedalBiker

    PedalBiker Member

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    I served in the Army for 12 years 8 as a comissioned officer.

    The Army has you swear to protect and defend the constitution, but make no mistake, obeying the commander in chief (and your chain of command) is what they expect and teach.

    I was never taught in a military classroom anything about the constitution and I never saw a copy of the bill of rights in any military facility.

    I had a lot of military buddies who enjoyed firearms and hunting and such. A lot of the urban soldiers had completely different attitudes. Officer vs enlisted had no bearing on the issue, it was mostly just personal opinion.

    The biggest defect of the armed forces is likely the concentration of youth and inexperience. We had an unbelievable problem with motor vehicles, and they were controlled just like firearms, unlike firearms, though, they were used a lot more often and with less supervision.
     
  17. stephpd

    stephpd Member

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    that oath

    posted twice
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2007
  18. stephpd

    stephpd Member

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    that oath

    I remember taking that oath but never gave it much thought until recently.
    When I was in the military I wasn't allowed to do many things including independant thought. You give up many rights and are subjected to the UCMJ, an arcane set of rules set up to make everyone from the Joint Chiefs of staff down to the lowest enlisted man to follow orders. very fascist. Big bussiness works much the same way.

    But I can see why many in our society, including people in the military don't want us to have guns. Just look at Iraq and see how hard it is to keep the civilians under contol if they have guns. Not sure when the citizens of this country will stand up and start protecting this country from domestic enemies
    ( government, big bussiness et al). And which do you go after first?

    As I've come to learn, the bill of rights are there to protect the people from the government. But since then the governent, much more since Sept. 11, has been hard at work trying to destroy those rights. And we go along losing these rights more and more.

    So I see myself up against a goverment, bought and paid for by Big Bussiness, set about to take everything from 'us the people'. At what point do 'WE the People' decide that we are headed down the wrong path? But as long as we have guns there is still a chance we can turn things around. I'm just not sure if Americans still have the backbone to do what is nessecary.

    As far as that oath, if I had taken it seriously then I would still be bound to it and would have to protect the constitution from many, both inside and outside this government, that seem more interested in money than doing whats right. I don't think I'm alone but where do I start?

    Simply owning a gun won't change the fact that our government is set against destroying those rights. They don't seem to care much about us except during election time. And since both parties are guilty of bribery they don't seem capable of being trusted. Throwing all the bums out won't solve the problem because we just get different bums (same two parties).
     
  19. NavyDoc

    NavyDoc Member

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    I'm an AD officer and I've a large collection. Although the military is a reflection on society and one will see liberals in the military just as one will see liberals in society, people who join the military tend to be conservative compaired to the general populace so, compaired to the general populace, the average military person would be more pro-RKBA than the average civilian, IMHO.

    Old NFO: can I shoot my Barrett 99-1 at the Quantico range?
     
  20. glockamolee

    glockamolee Member

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    If we are talking line officers; i.e., officers in the field; then the odds are that they will be pro-second amendment.

    If, on the other hand, we are discussing REMF's... then they are probably anti's just waiting for the War College to help them punch there ticket to One Star.
     
  21. Aguila Blanca

    Aguila Blanca Member

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    Sarge, the Constitution, like it or not, IS "the supreme law of the land." The UCMJ cannot supercede, overide or nullify the Constitution. And don't forget that when you enlisted, you swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution. I don't know about you, but when I enlisted I didn't swear any oath to protect and defend the UCMJ.

    Another point to consider about us pesky civilians who used ta was sojurs -- I swore an oath many years to protect and defend the Constitution. I have never received any piece of paper from the President releasing me from that oath, and in the unlikely event that I should receive such a piece of paper, I don't know that the President has any authority to release me from an oath sworn (if I remember correctly) before God.
     
  22. dirtpig67

    dirtpig67 Member

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    I am currently an officer (Armor O3) in the AD Army. I am mostly a lurker on this forum but felt the need to say my piece in regards to what I have seen in my stint in the service.

    I have been active duty now for nearly 5 years (9 if you count the 4 years at USMA) and have seen an elitist attitude in many, if not most, of the senior level officers (senior CPT and up). A lot of these officers I have met seem to have the attitude that civilians as a whole are inferior in regards to their in integrity and worthiness. It has been my experience, that there is a definite “us vs. them” attitude of these officers and how they view the general populace.

    An example of this attitude happened to me just the other day. I am leaving the Army very shortly and as a part of the process to leave active duty, you have to be counseled on your decision to do so. During this counseling (by an O6), it was made very clear to me during this counseling that he thought those that are in the military are a step-above the civilian population in nearly every respect and that I was making a big mistake in “lower myself down to their level” by choosing to leaving the military. This is just one example of many numerous others.

    Now how does this relate to the 2A? A lot of enlisted and officers own firearms. However, this personal support is mostly limited to owning a handgun and maybe a rifle if they are a hunter. I own a number of firearms, not a huge number, but enough that you would need to count them on two hands. Whenever the topic of firearms/shooting comes up, and I start talking about my little collection and my views on the 2A, I get a lot of “why would you possibly need that many guns” responses. The best one (from an O4) was “are you planning to start a militia after you get out” and he was not joking!

    I feel the overall support of the 2A by officers is kind of like 2A "lite". 2A "lite" is like the right to bear arms should not be taken to excess (ie by owning more firearms than you can hold at once) and should be restricted to only those responsible enough to do so, or something similar. The purpose of the 2A, to those those who are believers in the "lite" version, is the ensure that the ordinary citizens of this country have the ability to use firearms for sporting purposes, and for self-defense when the government or similar agency is not able to provide it (the purpose of the 2A as check against tyrany of government doesn't make the cut in the "lite" version).

    In an early post, it was stated that none of our National Guardsmen illegally confiscated firearms from people during Katrina while a number of the police forces in the area did. However, it should also be noted that none of these National Guardsmen stepped up and actively stopped it from taking place. I don't know about you all, but doing nothing to stop it does not seem to coincide with the spirit of the "support and defend the Constitution" portion of the commissioning oath that I took. It is not too much of a jump from doing nothing to stop confiscations, to actively confiscating them.

    I remember watching a news report in our unit headquarters on the confiscations during Katrina when a Major there with us stated that he hoped he would never have to conduct a mission like that. I said back to him that we would be obligated NOT to conduct a mission like that and to do everything within our power to stop it. His response shocked me and left me speechless – he said that we would have to follow an order like that because we didn’t have the authority to question a command decision in a situation like that.

    Based on my experiences of interacting with those people I have met in the Army, I personally believe that if ever the order went out for the military to confiscate weapons from civilians during a traumatic event, such as another Katrina-like event or a large-scale terrorist attack, the officers in our Army would follow this order. The lower levels of the officer and enlisted ranks would follow suit out of the fear of the repercussions of refusing to follow such an order given by a superior.

    That is the opinion of a lowly tanker CPT (soon to be lowly civilian) so take it for what its worth.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2007
  23. atomchaser

    atomchaser Member

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    In 20+ years as an AD Air Force Officer, I don't recall coming across any officers that were really anti 2A, but it is not usually a topic of discussion.
    Most of the folks are generally disinterested in guns or see them as too much trouble due base regulations, frequent moves, etc. You also have to understand if someone under your command does something stupid, you're going to standing up in front of the Wing Commander explaining why it happened and how you are going to prevent it in the future. Maybe some officers extend this paradigm to the civilian community as well.
     
  24. Lennyjoe

    Lennyjoe Member

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    Double-tap..
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2007
  25. Lennyjoe

    Lennyjoe Member

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    For the most part, about 75% of my troops that I directly supervise (46) are gun owners, shoot guns or hunt.

    I have 21 years in the Air Force and have rarely ran into anti-gun military folks.
     
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