Military rifle ammunition question

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Jeff H

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I have always understood that the military can use nothing but FMJ bullets according to the Geneva convention, but a buddy showed me a wikipedia link where they are using Sierra Match king bullets in sniper rifles. Which is technically a hollow point.

Can someone in the know please expand my knowledge on what, if any, different ammunition is available to military snipers and how this works withing the Geneva convention?
 
The Hague accords forbid expanding bullets, not the Geneva convention.

Many precision target bullets are made with an opening on the tip. They are not designed to expand even though they do look like a hollowpoint.
 
Open tip, match rounds are not recommended for hunting due to the lack of adequate expansion. Hence, OTBTM, does not constitute a "hollow point" in the traditional sense.
 
And who are we shooting with them that's a member of the Hague Accord anyway?

They want to cut our heads off with a dull hunting knife and make a YouTube vid while doing it!

Thats against all modern civilized rules of war, & conventions, & accords too!

rc
 
Hague Convention of 1899:

(IV,3): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations

This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." Ratified by all major powers, except the United States.

FWIW, the Hague conventions govern the conduct of war between ratifiying powers. The US has not fought a declared war since WWII.
 
The above posters are correct. It's the Hague Accords, not the Geneva Convention (which deals with treatment of prisoners of war) and it only prohibits the use of bullets which are designed to expand, not bullets which have an open tip by nature of construction.
 
OTM sniper ammunition was briefly "outlawed" by a CENTCOM JAG officer who overstepped both her authority and firearms knowledge in Iraq back in 05? 06? somewhere in there. Outside of that, there is a mountain of legal opinion that they're good to go for antipersonnel use.
 
stuff doesnt expand. i reloaded some '06 with sp, FMJ, ballistic tip boat tail and the sierra match kings. then fired them into some old paint can with dried up roof tar in them. the fmj did the same damage as the sierra. the ballistic tip blew a hole out of the thing bigger than a golf ball

same applies with pistol ammo. technically we could be running hollow point or soft point in Afghanistan if we wanted since we arent fighting people protected by the hague.
 
Just to add a few thoughts. Since the USA did not sign the Hague Accords, and for other stated reasons, we could choose to use HP or expanding ammo if we wanted to. But doing so would create other problems. Traditional soft point hunting ammo with an exposed lead tip would get beat up pretty bad and the tips deformed.

Also expanding ammo does not penetrate barriers well at all. Unlike deer hunting you often have to shoot through things to hit the enemy. FMJ is also generally considered to feed more reliably. FMJ ammo is still preferred for these reasons.

The opening in the tip of match ammo is left there as part of the manufacturing process. It is not designed to expand, but some hunters have reported great success with SOME brands of match ammo for hunting. I've not heard of any hunters using the Sierra bullets, but I have with Scenar's and Berger's. They don't expand in the traditional sense. They do tend to act just like a FMJ for the 1st 4"-6" then they just disintegrate into small pieces causing massive damage.

Berger makes a very similar bullet and puts a little thinner jacket on it to help guarantee the disintegration and markets it as a hunting bullet.
 
As a side note.
It appears both sides of the Ukranian conflict have been using both hollow and softpoint 7.62X39 and 7.62X54R ammunition.
So much for silly protocols when fighting a domestic conflict I guess,,,
 
JAG came out with their opinion in the '80s that the Sierra was designed for aerodynamic flight, not expansion. To do that, the round was made "backwards" to load the center of gravity where it was needed, and that left the tip open. Likely because swaging it closed accurately over millions of rounds of production was harder and unnecessary. The Sierra design has been used in Olympic shooting since the '50's, too, so it's not like it's been a huge secret.

It's a precision and relatively high cost bullet, tho, and it's not so good in comparison with the steel cored FMJ bullets designed for combat troops. In that scene, you need something that can penetrate. Things like adobe, brick, block, heavy timber construction, sandbags, vehicles, chest harnesses carrying stacks of loaded magazines, and body armor need something tougher to make an effective hit. In that role, you want FMJ, not some easily upset and low penetrating round. In fact, if it goes thru and hits another live target, bonus points!

Most combat casualties are not hit by fire directed at them as the target.

:confused:

Most combat casualties are not hit by fire directed at them as the target.

:eek:

That's why the fantasy of the individual marksman being the deciding factor in ground combat and his use of highly precise ammo means nothing. The reality is that a higher number of rounds flying thru the air makes it harder on the opponent. He shoots, moves, and communicates, too, when he's up and running, odds are he runs INTO fire and it may not have been at him at all.

Hence the adoption of the M16 and the worldwide acceptance of the short range full auto assault rifle as standard issue. And why it takes months of basic combat training to improve the odds of survival for new soldiers to raise them to at least 50%.

It's NOT a sunny Saturday afternoon at the range.
 
People that say that the 1899 Hague Convention Declaration III On The Use of Bullets That Expand or Flatten Easily is why the US cannot use expanding ammo are sorely misguided. It is very apparent they have never read that treat and do not know what they are talking about.

That treaty by its express terms only applies to contracting parties. Only states are contracting parties. That means first that it can only apply to International armed conflicts. Moreover, the US is not a contracting party. Thus that treat does not apply to the US.

The US is a signatory to another treaty that makes the US of expanding ammunition a war crime, the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, 17 July 1998. However this provision only applies to IAC and not non international armed conflict. Thus it is not a per se proscription on the military. The US never ratified this treaty. Despite not having ratified the treaty, as a signatory, the US has an obligation not to defeat the purposes of the treaty.


There is also The Hague Convention (IV) respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land and its annex: Regulations concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907. Section II Chapter 1 Article 23(e) provides that “t is especially forbidden [t]o employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.” Some argue that bullets that flatten or expand cause unnecessary suffering. I have argued against that position. However, this treaty also only applies to IAC.

There are also Customary International law obligations that apply to the US with respect to using hollow points.

It is a complicated issue. I've actually written a fifty page paper on it. The gist of my argument is that the US is legally forbidden from fielding such ammo in IAC but not in NIAC. I just really wish people would stop saying the Hague convention applies to the US and is what keeps us from using hollow points. Its not.

As to the OTM bullets. The legal opinion that says the US can us it was written by Hays Parks. I've read a lot of Mr. Parks writings. I think it is safe to say he thinks the proscriptions on bullets that flatten or expand are silly, particularly in the types of conflicts we are involved in today.
 
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Here's the end result of a 168 grain Sierra BTHP Match round fired at 423 meters through an M1A DMR clone on a North Dakota Whitetail buck. Didn't make it 2 steps before dropping like Obama's approval ratings! :evil: No ballistic gel, no wet phone books, no water jugs but the performance on tissue and bone.

168grainBTHPmatchexitwound.jpg
 
"...between signatory powers..." U.S. signed after W.W. II. Not a signatory of the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of POWs until then either. Mind you, the U.S. government tends to ignore treaties when they become inconvenient. Witness the use of shotguns in Viet Nam.
 
"...between signatory powers..." U.S. signed after W.W. II. Not a signatory of the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of POWs until then either. Mind you, the U.S. government tends to ignore treaties when they become inconvenient. Witness the use of shotguns in Viet Nam.
They were signed, but did the US Senate ever ratify the signing?

Another question: Does an International Armed Conflict require a formal declaration of war or do the accords apply to any IAC whether or not war is declared?
 
US military also issued 5.56mm Mk 318 and 7.62mm Mk 319 cartridges, both of which have expanding bullets.
 
They were signed, but did the US Senate ever ratify the signing?

Generally speaking when a state is a signatory to a treaty they have a duty not to defeat the purposes of a treaty even if the state has not ratified the treaty. There is an argument that using expanding ammo would do that if the use of expanding ammo is forbidden by the treaty.

Does an International Armed Conflict require a formal declaration of war or do the accords apply to any IAC whether or not war is declared?

I do not think the US congress has to make a declaration of war for it to be IAC.

Beyond treaties the US would be bound by Customary International Law anyways.

Mind you, the U.S. government tends to ignore treaties when they become inconvenient. Witness the use of shotguns in Viet Nam.

All states ignore treaties when they want to and can get away with it. The great limitation of international law is that there is no real effective enforcement mechanism. That said what treaty (and specific provision) do you think using shtotguns violates.

Also with respect to OTM bullets the legal opinion (IIRC) states that they are not forbidden not because they don't expand but rather because that is not what the OTM is designed to do. Rather the OTM is designed for accuracy and expansion is collateral.

Its basically legal gymnastics around a stupid and historically odd provision of the law of war.
 
And who are we shooting with them that's a member of the Hague Accord anyway?

They want to cut our heads off with a dull hunting knife and make a YouTube vid while doing it!

Thats against all modern civilized rules of war, & conventions, & accords too!
And under international law, we would be perfectly justified in declaring reprisals against them. If we had someone with the guts to do it.
 
Also the issue was started when the British Army stated using modern smokeless powder in rifle cartridges that attained much higher velocities than black powder weapons. They used soft point bullets called Dum-Dum bullets that expanded at high velocity causing massive wounds rather than the clean holes that low velocity rounds produced. This was in India in the late 1800's. There was a great public outcry about how barbaric Dum-Dum bullets were hence the change to full metal jacket rounds and treaties to make it universal.
 
They were not called Dum-Dum bullets. They were made at the Dum-Dum Munitions plant in India. The out-cry against their use was politically motivated
 
In articles I read they came to be called Dum-Dum bullets. The politics were about the wounds they caused in the articles I read some with copies of articles written in those days. Your source may be different, perhaps not original.
 
A major part of the discussion was that countries found the wounds difficult to care for. Since wars resulted in a lot of wounded veterans, they did not want the burden of hordes of badly maimed citizens to care for. And no country wanted their sons shot by those bullets. A clean wound was considered fair but a blow up wound caused by expanding bullets was considered barbaric. Hope this helps.
 
I read once that most of the rifle ammunition used in the ETO during WWII by our soldiers was armor piercing.

Since experienced combat soldiers avoided showing themselves as much as possible our troops used A.P. to try to shoot through the enemy soldiers cover. New recruits from the States had to be retrained to use A.P. and to shoot at the cover where the soldier was hiding as the recruits had been trained not to shoot until they saw the enemy soldier.

I believe the stats was something like 80% but I lost the link when a old computer crashed. Maybe someone has the source for this info.
 
Girodin, you stated that, "The Hague, 18 October 1907. Section II Chapter 1 Article 23(e) provides that “t is especially forbidden [t]o employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.” Some argue that bullets that flatten or expand cause unnecessary suffering. I have argued against that position. However, this treaty also only applies to IAC."
So please explain why the "Hague" does not limit or restrict the use of hollow points? I want to get this right in the future and your further explanation would be of benefit. Thanks.
Also P.S. What defines IAC in relation to war or a conflict between countries.
 
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