MIM Gun Parts?

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Having worked with forgings, castings and MIM parts.... I have to say that although MIM seems to be the perfect solution, not all companies do it properly, and thus the quality is rather poor with a low life span. If it is done correctly (very few do) it is as good as older methods, with a cheaper cost base.

The question is one of quality control.... some companies have it, others don't. But with regards to metallurgy, they should be equal so long as they are used for the right parts. I would hate to see a spring (or any other part that flexes) made from MIM.... but a slide or firing pin stop should be just fine....

Just my $.02
 
Anybody want to join me...?

Yes...is it true (as posted earlier) that pre-1989 is pre-MIM? Is there an easy way to tell the difference when looking at a used gun short of running the serial number and learning the date of birth?
 
QUOTE:
"A lot of people seem to fear new technology. It might be ignorance, or the "back in my day" mentality. "


Or they might prefer the best parts that can be built.




Just because something is new doesn't mean it's better. MIM is a cost cutting measure that still keeps "most" customers happy. If manu. thought "most" customers would buy a gun with a 200 round life span at the same price, they'd build it in a heartbeat.
 
Personally, I'll dump any MIM or "whatever-cast" parts I have ASAP.

There are two words that should be pivotal in this conversation that have not been mentioned - brittle and flexible.

Forged metals are more flexible and less brittle than molded or cast metals. If you doubt this then you need to do your homework.

Guns do a lot of twisting. This is one of the most stressful things you can do to a piece of metal. It also hardens the metal more every time it happens. Hardening it means it gets more brittle and, therefore, closer to failure.

MIM and cast parts are at the edge in terms of being brittle when they come out of the box. Ever try to "tune" a cast part? It's called breakage.

I may take a frame that is cast or molded, but that is only because you can replace a frame cheap. OTOH, if it is a forged frame you won't need to replace it.

I finished building a 1911 about three hours ago. It does not have a single MIM or cast part in it. Yeah, it cost about $750 (for me to build). And, BTW, it will cost most folks about 2K to buy.

Every metal part is forged. That is because that is what can be bent, filed, milled, twisted and tweaked without losing integrity.

If MIM and casting are so great why aren't springs made that way?

They aren't made that way because they are brittle and lack flexibility.

IOW, they lack durability.

It may take 100 years for us to find out just where they actually fall on the scale of durability, but I have forged guns that are 100 years old that I shoot anytime I want. If I own any guns with cast or MIM parts I wish someone would point them out to me so I could get rid of them and replace the guns or their parts with something that is made with some quality.

Of course that would not be possible. I have at least 50 guns I've never even shot.

Oh for the old days. You'd fit your slide to your frame by clamping it in a vise and squeezing it bit-by-bit until the slide to frame fit was tight. Try that with your Ruger and you'll be ordering a new slide.

Of course, we don't have mechanics anymore. All we have is part replacers.

XDs and Glocks must have JMB turning over in his grave.
 
^ Short of chopping it up and etching it, I don't know of any non-destructive way to tell the difference.

If MIM and casting are so great why aren't springs made that way?
It would be extremely expensive, inefficient, and would not produce the desired properties to simply cast or MIM a spring - one unsuitable application is not sufficient to question the quality/role of MIM or casting. Forging would also be a poor choice for spring-making. Extrusion/drawing is where it's at for this application.


Forged metals are more flexible and less brittle than molded or cast metals
That's not entirely accurate. Forged metals offer an advantage due to closing internal voids (greater density, higher internal quality) and creating directional strength from flow. Cast metals can be both more or less brittle than a forged part, it's all dependent on processing.
 
Short of chopping it up and etching it, I don't know of any non-destructive way to tell the difference.

JustJim opined that anything built before 1989 would not include MIM parts. Can anyone confirm and/or elaborate on this?

Old Fuff?
 
MIM was only developed in the 1990s if I recall, so 1989 should be MIM free.


To make it simple on all the folks this is a laymans guide to metal forming options used in guns.


a Forged part is heated to near melting tempture of the metal, and then hammered into shape by machine. metal has a chystal structure (think like wood grain) and the forging process can use that structure to make a stronger metal object.

Casting is when one pours molten metal into a mold and it is allowed to cool. Sand Casting is one of the most simple ways of casting (metal is poured into mold made out of sand) and investment casting is a more complex method where complete molds are produced and metal is cast from these parts.

Powder Metallurgy (Most famous being ZAMAK based alloys) which come in powder form and can be melted at lower temptures then normal steels. however the "interconnection" of the metal is not the same as a single bar of metal, and this type of metal was used for years to make such guns as the Raven.

Metal injection molding is very similer to Plastic injection molding, allows for tight tolerances. I would say that its not been around long enough to know if it breaks too early or not.

sorry for any mispellings...
 
Rainbowbob:

The Old Fuff has decided to charge $200,000.00 per answer because his friends have told him he'll get what he has com'min... :what: :D

Anyway. The S&W 686 went to MIM Lockwork in 1998 at 686-5.

The easy way to tell: With few exceptions (such as rimfire revolvers) the firing pin will be mounted on the hammer in pre-MIM revolvers; and MIM triggers are hollow on the back where earlier triggers are solid.

Some revolvers had mixed parts for a short period, so you might find a revolver with an MIM trigger but conventional hammer, or perhaps the other way around.
 
MIM did not exist 60 years ago. Neither did CNC and a host of other technologies today that have gotten us into outer space. To claim that we have nothing today in this world that can beat 100-year old technology is a bit presumptuous...kind of like katana fanboys that claim nothing in the universe can beat the sharpness of a 400 year old sword made by hammering a lump of iron.

Old-world craftsmanship is one thing (and something I respect), but claiming every new innovation is somehow the downfall of society sounds alarmist. As mentioned, without innovation, we'd have no parts interchangeability. We'd still be hand-fitting each individual part on an individual gun and costs would be astronomical with today's union-driven labor prices. If you look at the history of firearms, parts interchangeability played a huge role in making firearms more practical to manufacture on a large scale and dropped price to make it more affordable. I like the security of forged and billet parts too, but on low-stress items, it does not really matter much...not to mention the manufacturing industry base in the US has been vanishing for decades so we are loosing the machinery and skill to manufacture efficiently. Most of the cutting-edge manufacturing technology comes out of Japan now.

There are plenty of cost-cutting measures, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're dropping quality because you pump up quantity. Some costs are associated to inefficiency and fat that can be trimmed. If you're simply axing corners to save a buck without maintaining or improving the product quality, then you're guilty of creating a bad product and your argument comes into play. Poorly, cheaply made products are worthless.

If you're going to argue we're better off having people in machine shops run Bridgeports and engine lathes instead of multi-axis swiss machines and palletized machining centers, then I'm going to have to disagree.

Anyhow I work in aerospace manufacturing but that doesn't mean I'm some tech geek that hates "old stuff". I know how to hand scrape, something perfected over 100 years ago and rarely practice today. I doubt you'll find any machinist today that knows, let alone heard of the process. There are few people capable of creating bearing surfaces flat to .00005" (50 millionths) with nothing more than three plates of iron, and old file, and knowhow. Not even modern machines can fit precision metal surfaces together like that, especially rebuilding machinery. A time and place for every process.

If MIM and casting are so great why aren't springs made that way?

If springs are so great, why aren't engine blocks made of spring steel instead of castings?

Its easy to jump to baseless "arguments". Every manufacturing process has it's place. Sometimes doing things the "old way" is too labor intensive and not practical because the market won't support it. I see so many threads on THR about how ammo is so expensive and guns are so expensive. If we made everything with 50-year old technology and methods with today's labor rates and economy, boy 80% of the THR posts would be complaints about why a forged Lorcin costs $600 even if they might be superior to stamped Lorcins coming out the parts bin into a delivery truck for $149. The commercial plane you fly in has lots of titanium and stainless steels sourced directly from China; I've seen the material certifications myself, and those jumbo jets are full of cast parts too. Food for thought.
 
and correct me if I'm wrong here, but the failure of a MIM part would have a lot more to do with its heat treatment rather than the structure of the metal itself (assuing no hidden defects)
Basically as long as its prepared properly, you should get long life from it.
 
Old Fuff:

The check is in the mail. But for that kind of money I have to ask another question...

...the firing pin will be mounted on the hammer in pre-MIM revolvers...

What do you mean by that? Is the firing pin molded with the hammer in a MIM part?

MIM triggers are hollow on the back where earlier triggers are solid.

That does sound like an easy way to identify MIM.

This is an interesting discussion about the various metallurgy techniques and evolving technologies.

Speaking of old school...I just saw a show on the History Channel about ancient Greek metallurgy. They had armor and weapons made in ingenious ways that they said can NOT be duplicated today! I don't understand how we couldn't at least reverse-engineer anything they were capable of - but that was the claim.
 
Its difficult to reverse engineer stuff when the process is incredibly convoluted and "lost in time". They still can't figure out Greek Fire, and they aren't exactly sure of the forging methods used in many western damascus, Wootz damascus, or damascus-like steel even though most high end modern knifesmiths are forging their own damascus stuff.

I give a lot of credits to our ancestors. They aren't really different than us. They were equally ingenious

MIM parts often have ejector pin markings, flashing, or part lines but these are usually kept to a minimum and possible deburring afterwards would remove traces of such.
 
MIM parts often have ejector pin markings, flashing, or part lines but these are usually kept to a minimum and possible deburring afterwards would remove traces of such.

It does remove the flash, and I've yet to see any parting lines, but it does not remove the ejector pin markings--at least not on the MIM gun parts I've seen so far.
 
rainbowbob, on older S&W revolvers, the firing pin was pinned onto the hammer. When the hammer dropped, the firing pin went through a channel and hit the primer. It wa a forged piece of steel that made the gun run. In fact, my grandfather carried a S&W model 19 that I hope to inherit one day.

Later models don't do this.
 
The check is in the mail.

I can hardly wait, but the tax collector will be with the mailman... :D

What do you mean by that? Is the firing pin molded with the hammer in a MIM part?

There are some exceptions, such as .22 RF revolvers, but most pre-MIM Smith & Wesson and Colt double-action's have a separate firing pin mounted on the top/front of the hammer and held by a rivet. MIM guns have the firing pin mounted in the frame. If you cock the hammer and look at it you will either see, or not see, a firing pin. Also most (but not all) revolvers with MIM parts also have the lock mounted above the cylinder latch thumb piece.
 
To add to drgong's definitions...I believe MIM, although still "casting", is more between casting and forging. Rather than taking metal to a completely liquid state and pouring into a mold, MIM usually takes metal to a semi-solid/semi-liquid state and it is then inserted into the mold using pressure/counter pressure(pressure at one point and a vacuum on the other end). The advantage here over casting is the semi-solid metal is less likely to have voids due to the process(pressure) and less cooling time. Most of the cost savings are due only to less time from solid to semi-solid to cooled solid again. So, because it's cheaper doesn't necessarily mean it's lower quality, it's just a technology advancement over traditional casting to get metal into the shape desired.

I could be completely wrong...I make no warranty on the above spillage. I'm just a computer geek who works for an iron foundry corporation.
 
^ Yes, MIM/sintering never reaches melting temperatures, but instead relies on diffusion to achieve a high density. At the high, but sub-melting, temperature, the atoms are more active and will flow into the voids and remove them.
 
MIM guns have the firing pin mounted in the frame. If you cock the hammer and look at it you will either see, or not see, a firing pin.

I did not know that. Thanks, Old Fuff - that clears it up.
 
MIM for small parts that aren't under great stress/heat is perfectly fine. For a 1911, that would be the thumb safety, grip safety, mainspring housing, etc. I have many thousands of rounds through my Kimber and it's been very reliable, even with the MIM extractor.

Now, I would NOT want a MIM barrel, slide, frame, hammer or ANY springs.
 
I did not know that. Thanks, Old Fuff - that clears it up.

Good! But remember that any rule can be broken. There are some older models that have frame-mounted firing pins but older "real steel" lockwork.

Another tip off is that MIM hammers are hollowed out on the sides on the inside where it is hardly visible. Older hammers on solid on the sides.

MIM parts have a sort of "pebble-like" surface. Older parts are much smoother.
 
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