MIM parts in Kimber

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Horge said:
If you can find a binder to retain part shape even at the temperatures (and for the time) necessary to get metal grain in line, then you still lose density-wise, because the binder itself is still there, taking up space that should be occupied by steel.

I'd beg to differ!

The company I work for produces wrought refractory metals, and we start with powder. We also produce sintered tungsten alloys; that product and our wrought pure tungsten (99.99%) competes with MIM tungsten that our competition produces. I know we used to supply Ruger with a sintered & machined alloy product, I believe for the 22LR semi-auto rifle, that is now an MIM part.

The MIM products have developed to the point that we are looking into producing it ourselves. As mentioned, cost is a determining factor - but not if quality cannot be maintained - field failures cannot be tolerated.

But - to your point about density - during the sintering process, the binders are burnt off & the part is actually reduced in size. Part of the engineering challenge is to produce the molds to the correct oversized dimensions that will result in a "to tolerance" part after sintering.

This blurb is from Kinetics MIM site (I don't know them - just did a quick search & they popped up):

After molding, green parts are debound and sintered at temperatures up to 2,600°F. During debinding, the polymer binder breaks down and dissipates while the metal particles retain all of the molded features. The metal particles fuse together during sintering and the part shrinks approximately 20% to form a solid metal part.

The process differs from plastic injection molding because of the high heat involved.

I can also say that, at least with pure tungsten which is a very high temperature material, obtaining a density that compares with that of a wrought product that has been rolled down from 2" thick ingot is a challenge. But to the specification issue: there are a few LE agencies that have torture tested guns using MIM parts, & the results were that these guns were chosen for duty work. Clearly, MIM can be used to produce firearm components that sustain the stresses involved.
 
Sean, ever know a bullseye shooter who didn't have trigger work done on his gun to accurize it? I don't. The action parts on a MIM gun are MIM. That's what I was talking about. But while we're at it, how is it that Kimbers are consistently more accurate than other production guns.........even the guns by the original maker.
 
Kimber Accuracy

GunsnRovers:

>>Where is the data to show Kimbers are consistently more accurate<<
**********************

Okay...One more toenail in the fight.

I don't know of any study that proves or disproves that the Kimbers are
consistently more accurate than other production guns, but based on the
few that I've handled and reports from some of the owners in the area...
Kimber-produced 1911 pistols have on top of the production gun heap with the accuracy issue. They MIM/Durability question may be an issue, but they
shine in the accuracy department.

Again...I don't see as many Kimbers around here as I do Colts and Springfields,
and the numbers may not be representative of the breed...but based on what I have seen, they're pretty impressive when it comes to puttin'em in a tight group.
 
I'm not doubting Kimber produces a very accurate pistol. I do have issues with blanket claims of performance. Especially when based on forum data. Forums are also the place where folks declare their pistol "reliable" after 200 rounds of ammunition. ;)

Tuner, I'm not doubting your experience either, but I don't consider it sufficient to support the claim. Especially when you admit to limited sample availability.
 
I've had over 16,000 rounds through six different Kimbers with no parts breakage (no jams either). I think the whole rigamarole about MIM parts is hot air.
 
Sean, ever know a bullseye shooter who didn't have trigger work done on his gun to accurize it? I don't. The action parts on a MIM gun are MIM. That's what I was talking about.

Trigger work doesn't make a gun more accurate. It makes the gun easier to shoot.

Your statement still makes no sense, though, since Kimber triggers aren't any better or worse than any other mass-produced 1911 triggers I've tried. It isn't like you are getting a $600 gun with a trigger like a $3,000 Ed Masaki bullseye gun or something.

But while we're at it, how is it that Kimbers are consistently more accurate than other production guns.........even the guns by the original maker.

Actually, recent gun magazine reviews, even though they do alot of Kimber butt kissing in the text, aren't showing test targets that are any better than other major 1911 makers. Around 3" @ 25 yards most of the time. The Kimber I owned was alot better than that, but it was an old pre-Series II gun.
 
Sean, there is mechanical accuracy and accuracy in the hands of a shooter. To me, a trigger and smooth action make a difference. More power to ya if you can shoot any trigger the same. YMMV, but I've never come across a factory SA (even a loaded) or a NRM Colt (other than a Gunsite model I shot) with a trigger like a base model Kimber.

Gunsnrovers, I based my statement on my own experience and getting to shoot lots of new guns (all while getting paid :) .) It's just my own observation and opinion, not an extrapolation of any forum posts.
 
Kruzr, didn't mean to imply anything about you specifically.

I'm very skeptical of the e-univserse in general and forums as a rule.
 
Blanket Statements

Old guys? Heyyyyy! I resemble that remark... :neener: Kruz...When ya gonna come for a visit and let an old man teach ya...uh, teach ya...ummmm
Dangit! I forgot what I was gonna say... :rolleyes:

GunsnRovers...Agreed on the blanket statements. To say that all Kimbers are more accurate than any other make is as absurd as insisting that all Kimbers are prone to early parts failure, especially when the statement is based on limited personal experience.
 
Kruz...When ya gonna come for a visit and let an old man teach ya...uh, teach ya...ummmm
I'm not sure which of us would be considered the old man. :D

I also agree about the blanket statements. Everything I post is just my opinion not that of a recognized industry expert like some who used to post here.
 
I also agree on the failure claims. I don't care for Kimbers, but I'm way short of condeming them. We can all formulate opinions, but IMHO that's all we're really sharing here.

Hang out here long enough cherry picking pros and cons of various makes and you can walk away sounding like an expert, but knowing very little. :)
 
But to the specification issue: there are a few LE agencies that have torture tested guns using MIM parts, & the results were that these guns were chosen for duty work. Clearly, MIM can be used to produce firearm components that sustain the stresses involved.

Actually, the only thing that proves is that those specific guns met the specifications of those specific agencies.

It does't say anything about MIM as a process, it doesn't say anything about Kimbers, Springers or Colts. It doesn't even say anything about what their specifications compare to the orignial 1911A1 specifications.

This is about specifications, and whether the MIM can meet them. Whether other specifications are met has no bearing.
 
For the record, I read a lot of test reports on new guns and Kimbers didn't show any great advantage that I saw (but it was after their "heyday" when they actually gave a crap). in reality, when tested with different brands of ammo, the guns usually "swapped places" in the hierarchy of accuracy (unless one was a real toad).

Ammo has a large effect on accuracy. Gun to gun variation of a given model from the same maker shows a lot of accuracy spread. I agree that for 1911's, most decent ones will hold 2.5" or better at 25 yards with their favorite ammo. Superb guns like Wilson usually can hold 1.5 - 1", but they are hand fitted so the accuracy comes from dead tight lockup and superior grade barrel.

One odd thing: SIGS (not 1911) always seemed to shoot average under 2" groups which is odd since their longest barrel is only 4.2". They really did look like they shoot consistently more accurately than other production guns by a little margin.
 
Kevinch

Well, differ away! :)

1. Of course the part shrinks as the binder burns off ---I already said the binder takes up space. The reason you have to mind the cook time and heat is --as you said-- to get the correct ultimate dimensions. However, this does not happen 100% of the time (else there would be no need for tight monitoring of furnace temp/time and part shrinkage), and the reject bins are there for a reason.

2. Most partial-pressure batch furnaces used for MIM crank only up to 1700 °C. Typical sintering temps for relevant steels lie a few hundred degrees below THAT. (Beyond the 1700 °C ceiling, it gets tricky ensuring laminar airflow in the furnace so the castings get evenly heated, and binder burns off throughout the part, exactly when you expect it to ---and besides, at the top temp, even tungsten melts).

You've cited a third party furnace temp of 2600 °F ---which is within that range (1427 °C) but remains just short of steel's general melting point (you are, after all, merely sintering). Investment casting also works within roughly the same temp range but crosses well into melting (around 1500-1650 °C). With MIM, the part receives less heat overall ---and so doesn't turn into a molten puddle, because again, we ARE merely sintering, creating contact boundries between grains, rather than attempting homogeneity on a more fundmental (literally!) level, and I hope we don't have to retread the difference in potential grain structure, density and above all, tensile strength for anyone.

3. There's a huge difference between your tungsten alloys and the steel we see used in 1911 pistols. There are tungsten carbide products wherefor MIM is the only game in town, but in terms of properties, applicability and manufacturing process, it is a little distracting to be looking in those alloys' direction.

--------

While Fluff is right that PIM has been around awhile, you are also correct that MIM is still in its childhood, and has room to improve. I'll leave alone any commendable faith that MIM can one day replace forged steel in human use --or at least in 1911-pattern pistol manufacture... as a Catholic, I'm not unfamiliar with issues of faith and of reason.

I believe you can manipulate grain structure within the MIM process.
Well, right now and for the foreseeable near future, one cannot, for so long as one does not permit the metal to attain fluid state. One is merely creating contact boundaries between distinct metal particles.

But of course, in a Gene Roddenberry, Isaac Asimov sort of vein, sure... maybe we can, one day. Down the road we probably won't need to use heat or seek fluidity at all--- we can already assemble metallic coatings molecule by molecule. Maybe one day, we can economically manipulate bulk steel grain structure with magnetics, or teleport molecules into perfect arrangement.

Indeed, someday, boundless human invention may solve all our problems
...and we won't NEED or WANT 1911-pattern pistols anymore.
Fluff and Tuna would just loooove that kind of future. :evil:
Not my cup of kape' either, but to all so inclined, please carry on! ;)

I know I'm getting silly... but it's just lighthearted silliness.
Not mocking anyone!!!
:)
 
>> Everything I post is just my opinion not that of a recognized industry expert like some who used to post here. <<

(Sniff) Gee … well then … maybe I should just go and feed the pigeons… Course I can always talk to the neighbor’s pet cat. Or converse with some goldfish…….. maybe ……
 
(Sniff) Gee … well then … maybe I should just go and feed the pigeons… Course I can always talk to the neighbor’s pet cat. Or converse with some goldfish…….. maybe ……

Keywords: used to post here

Introduce the cat to the pigeons and the goldfish.
 
OK, I'll say this again and you can find my posts in a search, I'm sure.

I have a Kimber Eclipse with at least 12,000 rounds through it (my primary IDPA gun). It sheared the rear sight and broke 2 Series II plungers which rendered the gun useless. Finally, I ripped out the series II work and it's been a killer machine. I don't care if it was MIM or not, but I wish the metal had bent rather than shear. It looked like cheap pot metal to me and NO ONE offers a replacement for the parts..........

I have another great Kimber so spare me how your Kimber is perfect, but as Elmer said: "Hell, I was there......"
 
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