Min. Cal. for elephant
- Thread starter W L Johnson
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20 mm hand cannon
Wes Janson
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The RPG is cheaper though, and a helluva alot easier to carry on your back through the brush.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
From the article you cited. Note what is listed before RPGs. Also note that nowhere does it state that the RPG is the "preferred weapon" of ivory hunters. Do you know the RPG isn't? Because of damage to the ivory. The the RPG can be used, but it is far from being an ideal weapon for ivory harvesting.
Then the RPG would not be the preferred weapon, would it?
krs
Member
If a mad elephant was charging at me, it would be.
I really get tired of hearing folks try to use Bell to justify using too little gun.
1.
2 (with additional info).
3 (both Bell AND Selous- all the information of the first two, plus some).
John
1.
2 (with additional info).
3 (both Bell AND Selous- all the information of the first two, plus some).
John
oneounceload
member
I don't think folks are using Bell to JUSTIFY as so much as they are to say that merely it HAS and CAN be done. However, countries have instituted, for legal safari hunting, minimum calibers for certain game animals, and any PH worth his license will also inform his clients as to the required calibers and performance minimums. I know two gentlemen that I shoot sporting with- both are veteran African hunters, each with over a dozen safaris under their belts. One uses a 458 and the other a 416 Remington for lion and up, with a 338 for plains game.
I think some folks are confusing what is being used illegally to take elephants and what is required legally on a legit safari
I think some folks are confusing what is being used illegally to take elephants and what is required legally on a legit safari
SpeedAKL
Member
There is a difference between a minimum caliber or cartridge needed to kill an elephant and the minimum caliber or cartridge a sensible person would RECOMMEND for such a task. Plenty of elephants have been poached using 7.62x39 Soviet. Would I recommend such a caliber at all to a hunter for elephant? Hell no. If I were going on an African hunt I would use .375H&H at minimum and would probably look at big-bore rounds like .416 or .458. Some of the .338 super-mags would also do the trick, but the heavy round-nose bullets in the big-bore African cartridges are designed specifically for this work.
People also confuse "minimum caliber for" with "minimum caliber anyone ever used for".
A hiker shot and killed an attacking grizzly bear with a .22 handgun she was carrying. This was either a very lucky shot, or she just wasn't meant to die that day, depending on how you see the world.
Suffice it to say, her shot placement was perfect.
Does that mean that .22LR is the "minimum caliber for grizzly"? HELL NO. That would be a stupid statement. But someone did kill a grizzly with a .22 once.
It is also safe to say that a .308 or 7x57 for elephant is about like .22LR on deer. Poachers most certainly do it. That doesn't make it legal, ethical, or smart for me to do it.
A hiker shot and killed an attacking grizzly bear with a .22 handgun she was carrying. This was either a very lucky shot, or she just wasn't meant to die that day, depending on how you see the world.
Suffice it to say, her shot placement was perfect.
Does that mean that .22LR is the "minimum caliber for grizzly"? HELL NO. That would be a stupid statement. But someone did kill a grizzly with a .22 once.
It is also safe to say that a .308 or 7x57 for elephant is about like .22LR on deer. Poachers most certainly do it. That doesn't make it legal, ethical, or smart for me to do it.
dirtyjim
Member
you need this ken owen 4 bore double rifle & its only $115,000
if the first 2000grain bullet doesn't stop it the second surely will. ammo is right at $44.00 a round but if you had an elephant staring you down it probably wouldn't seem all that expensive. a 4 bore has a 1.00" bore diameter.
you will need several gun porters to carry this monster around.
the recoil is not a bad as you would think, the weight of the gun helps keep the recoil managable.
i was one of the three people who had the nads to shoot it last weekend
if the first 2000grain bullet doesn't stop it the second surely will. ammo is right at $44.00 a round but if you had an elephant staring you down it probably wouldn't seem all that expensive. a 4 bore has a 1.00" bore diameter.
you will need several gun porters to carry this monster around.
the recoil is not a bad as you would think, the weight of the gun helps keep the recoil managable.
i was one of the three people who had the nads to shoot it last weekend
Completely on the other side of the planet, you have this.........
A fifty something whiteman spearhunting for elephants:
http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20031215/013377.html
isher
A fifty something whiteman spearhunting for elephants:
http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20031215/013377.html
isher
dirtyjim
Member
ken owen makes & sells the ammo, same guy who made the rifle.
holding that thing on target is more of a chore than the recoil.
here is a pic from last weeks shoot, anything on this table is more than adequate for elephant.
the silver bolt rifle on the left is a 700AHR, the next rifle is a 700 nitro express, next is a 2 bore front stuffer,i think the next rifle was a 600 overkill, i don't rememer what the next rifle was but i think it was the 5 pound titanium .416 rem mag, a 4 bore double rifle the mastadon 4 bore from above was on another table, i don't remember the caliber of the last three rifles.
here is a pic of a fired 4 bore case next to a 10.75x68mm & a 35 whelen from my puny rifles.
holding that thing on target is more of a chore than the recoil.
here is a pic from last weeks shoot, anything on this table is more than adequate for elephant.
the silver bolt rifle on the left is a 700AHR, the next rifle is a 700 nitro express, next is a 2 bore front stuffer,i think the next rifle was a 600 overkill, i don't rememer what the next rifle was but i think it was the 5 pound titanium .416 rem mag, a 4 bore double rifle the mastadon 4 bore from above was on another table, i don't remember the caliber of the last three rifles.
here is a pic of a fired 4 bore case next to a 10.75x68mm & a 35 whelen from my puny rifles.
theotherwaldo
Member
After this video I had to drop elephants from my "animals to hunt some day" list.
Maybe I've read too much sci-fi, but anything that can paint like that isn't just a game animal to me.
Self defense, that's another story.
Maybe I've read too much sci-fi, but anything that can paint like that isn't just a game animal to me.
Self defense, that's another story.
oneounceload
member
Again, whether anything on the table is adequate, is the question of whether or not it is LEGAL in the country you are hunting in. 375 is typically the minimum, and most require more for hunting elephant
dirtyjim
Member
everything on that table is legal for elephant and more than adequate, the .416 was the smallest on that table.
oneounceload
member
That's gotta hurt if you're shooting all day!...
Cosmoline
Member
They're fair game until they learn to shoot back or hire lawyers.
theotherwaldo
Member
Just my luck, I'd shoot the first one whose brother is a lawyer.
Wes Janson
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There are plenty of humans on this planet quite capable of creating art with a brush, but when there's a weapon in their hand instead and they're trying to kill me with it, I don't really have compunctions about defending myself. Same goes for the pachyderms and anything else that tries.
Just out of the sake of curiosity, has anyone bothered to ask why the 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 are favored calibers of poachers? Obviously the poachers are purely concerned with the results of making elephants metabolically non-functional in a cheap and simple of a manner as possible. When you see two groups of people set out to accomplish the same aim, and on the one side everyone's using extremely expensive bolt-action ultra-heavy calibers, and the other's packing $200 3rd-world assault rifles, one has to wonder just who's really more adapted to the task at hand.
If your goal is to "hunt" in a proper, legal, humane fashion, and follow the traditions and methods set forth by hundreds of years of predecessors, then the only accepted course of action is to choose a good solid double rifle or bolt gun, chambered in something north of .375 H&H, and topped with irons or a low-magnification optic.
If the goal is to kill elephants and do it in a cheap and efficient manner, the evidence would seem to suggest that a 30rd magazine full of Russian-made 123gr FMJ 7.62x39 slotted into a beat-up old Chinese Kalashnikov will do the job. And you're probably going to find it easier to equip and train random idiots to go out in groups hunting them equipped thusly, in comparison to finely crafted European sporting artillery. It's neither elegant nor legal, but beware the trap of discounting a thing out of distaste rather than evidence.
The only ridiculous legal limit for African Safari si the 375 H&H for lions...it's not something that I say but many African hunters said (including the previous owner of my South African sporterized 30-06 Mauser 98)
Rhino, Dumbo and Cape Buffalo it's another story...the 375 is fully justified
Rhino, Dumbo and Cape Buffalo it's another story...the 375 is fully justified
General Geoff
Member
Words of wisdom, true that. If you're setting out to humanely hunt elephant, then yes, an expensive large-caliber rifle and ammo is required. But in a pinch (or on a budget), an AK will do the job. Chances are, if you're in Africa on a safari, hunting elephant (and paying the requisite trophy fees), you can afford to use a larger caliber rifle designed for the job.
45crittergitter
Member
“It does sometimes seem that the .375 is good for everything. Or taking a different tack with the same logic, it often seems that the .375 is good for nothing. It is too big for small antelope, and it is too small for dangerous African game. Although I own a half dozen .375’s which I never want to be without, I wholeheartedly subscribe to this latter logic. From my viewpoint, the .375 is an idea whose time should never have arrived in Africa. In my wanderings I am continually besieged by breathless hunters just back from Africa who paw my lapels and describe, wide-eyed, how many shots their buffalo soaked up before finally going down. ‘Don’t tell me,’ I always reply, ‘you were using a .375, right?’ ‘How did you know?’ they ask. Hair-raising escapades with charging buffalo and rampaging elephants seem to go hand in hand with the .375. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that it doesn’t get the job done. Several professional hunters have told me that they share this view. Experience tells us that the .375 isn’t what we want for buffalo and elephant.” - Jim Carmichael
The .416s [400 grain solids] will penetrate an elephant’s skull from any angle and usually exit. As velocity drops and frontal area (resistance) increases, penetration diminishes, and it diminishes faster with bullets of lower sectional density. At a velocity level below something like 2,100 fps, depending on caliber and bullet weight, you must rule out frontal brain shots on elephant altogether. “The .416 is significantly/dramatically more effective on buffalo than the .375 and immeasurably/a great deal better on elephant. Which .416 you choose doesn’t matter much. The .416 Rigby and .416 Remington are ballistically identical and identical in their effects on game. You can throw in the .416 Taylor, .416 Hoffman, .411 KDF, .404 Jeffery and .425 Westley Richards as well. Faster and more powerful are the .416 Weatherby and .416 Dakota and Lazzeroni’s 10.57 Meteor. These are harder-kicking cartridges that offer a good deal more versatility for longer shots at plains game, but on dangerous game at close range offer little practical advantage over the .416 Remington/Rigby ballistics.” - Craig Boddington
“We know a good modern softpoint from a .375 at 2,550 fps can penetrate to a buffalo’s vitals from any reasonable angle, and we know a 300 grain solid at the same velocity can penetrate an elephant’s skull from almost any angle, as can a 400 grain .416 at 2,400 fps. Make no mistake: With equally good shot placement, a 400 grain .416 will put down a Cape buffalo more quickly and more dramatically than a 300 grain .375. That said, a 500 grain, 458 caliber bullet will be even more dramatic and effective.” - Craig Boddington
“Only extremely experienced hands should use it (.375 H&H) for elephant. The .375 is marginal for elephant, but it’s on the right side of the margin.” - Craig Boddington
“If you drive a high-quality, [.416] 400-grain bullet at 2350 fps, it is very deadly. We do not need to argue about the critter involved. It stops charging bull elephants, knocks the lights out of lions, swats bears and big bull elk and can do a remarkably fine job on deer-sized game. Is one case better than the other? Ballistically no, but practically, yes - the Remington. Remington’s .416 is probably the most practical and perhaps the best medium-heavy rifle made. In the end, you cannot go wrong, unless you get confused and buy a 45 caliber rifle instead.” - Ross Seyfried
“I knew the .416 Rigby rifle and cartridge by reputation, but nothing prepared me for the performance which became apparent as soon as I began using it. The striking ‘knock-down’ power, the incredible penetration with Rigby’s excellent solids and the flat trajectory all combined to make this, in my opinion, the perfect professional hunter’s rifle.” - Harry Selby
“There is no need to beat around the bush: Everything considered, Remington’s new .416 Mag. Is the finest standard-production cartridge ever developed in this country, and, quite arguably, in the world for all-around use on dangerous game and the largest beasts.” - Finn Aagaard, 1989
I have also just read information indicating that the very large bore Nitro Express type cartridges offer reduced penetration compared to more conventional .400-.458 class dangerous game guns. Calibers from around .577 to .700 NE apparently simply do not penetrate elephant skulls as well as the .416's and .458's. Probably a combination of low SD and low velocity.
The .416s [400 grain solids] will penetrate an elephant’s skull from any angle and usually exit. As velocity drops and frontal area (resistance) increases, penetration diminishes, and it diminishes faster with bullets of lower sectional density. At a velocity level below something like 2,100 fps, depending on caliber and bullet weight, you must rule out frontal brain shots on elephant altogether. “The .416 is significantly/dramatically more effective on buffalo than the .375 and immeasurably/a great deal better on elephant. Which .416 you choose doesn’t matter much. The .416 Rigby and .416 Remington are ballistically identical and identical in their effects on game. You can throw in the .416 Taylor, .416 Hoffman, .411 KDF, .404 Jeffery and .425 Westley Richards as well. Faster and more powerful are the .416 Weatherby and .416 Dakota and Lazzeroni’s 10.57 Meteor. These are harder-kicking cartridges that offer a good deal more versatility for longer shots at plains game, but on dangerous game at close range offer little practical advantage over the .416 Remington/Rigby ballistics.” - Craig Boddington
“We know a good modern softpoint from a .375 at 2,550 fps can penetrate to a buffalo’s vitals from any reasonable angle, and we know a 300 grain solid at the same velocity can penetrate an elephant’s skull from almost any angle, as can a 400 grain .416 at 2,400 fps. Make no mistake: With equally good shot placement, a 400 grain .416 will put down a Cape buffalo more quickly and more dramatically than a 300 grain .375. That said, a 500 grain, 458 caliber bullet will be even more dramatic and effective.” - Craig Boddington
“Only extremely experienced hands should use it (.375 H&H) for elephant. The .375 is marginal for elephant, but it’s on the right side of the margin.” - Craig Boddington
“If you drive a high-quality, [.416] 400-grain bullet at 2350 fps, it is very deadly. We do not need to argue about the critter involved. It stops charging bull elephants, knocks the lights out of lions, swats bears and big bull elk and can do a remarkably fine job on deer-sized game. Is one case better than the other? Ballistically no, but practically, yes - the Remington. Remington’s .416 is probably the most practical and perhaps the best medium-heavy rifle made. In the end, you cannot go wrong, unless you get confused and buy a 45 caliber rifle instead.” - Ross Seyfried
“I knew the .416 Rigby rifle and cartridge by reputation, but nothing prepared me for the performance which became apparent as soon as I began using it. The striking ‘knock-down’ power, the incredible penetration with Rigby’s excellent solids and the flat trajectory all combined to make this, in my opinion, the perfect professional hunter’s rifle.” - Harry Selby
“There is no need to beat around the bush: Everything considered, Remington’s new .416 Mag. Is the finest standard-production cartridge ever developed in this country, and, quite arguably, in the world for all-around use on dangerous game and the largest beasts.” - Finn Aagaard, 1989
I have also just read information indicating that the very large bore Nitro Express type cartridges offer reduced penetration compared to more conventional .400-.458 class dangerous game guns. Calibers from around .577 to .700 NE apparently simply do not penetrate elephant skulls as well as the .416's and .458's. Probably a combination of low SD and low velocity.
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