Min. Number of shots to create a trend

[Poper]

@ Andrew Leigh:

I am afraid you are near 100% correct. It is with amusement that I see people discounting "flyers" and claiming wonderful groups. I have seen my mate discount a shot in the three shot group of 1.5" and claim .3" for the two that were cutting, I told him he was delusional.

Check out the 2 three round groups on this target fired at 100 yards from a cold, clean barrel: http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=190761&d=1383533773

See any fliers?

Poper

 

[Lee S. Forsberg]

Get the Bedding done first then do load development. Use five shot groups. Pay attention to the first shot from a cold barrel. If it goes into the group along with with all the other bullets from a warm barrel then the bedding is correct. Chronographs are good for confirming an accurate load and velocity.

 

[Pripyat]

So I made it to the range. Interesting day. Shot some 1/2" steel plate at 100 yards and the 168 grain matchkings went straight through. Wish I had taken pictures of the steel. Entrance/exit was exactly opposite of what I expected. Groups still aren't what I would like. Gun was shooting really low. I'm assuming one of the stocks had the receiver torqued.



Right top was the third shot after a de-coppering of the barrel. Left group was 4 shots .5 grains difference.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Morning,

something odd going on here.

Lower three shot group was starting to look good about 1.25"? I am assuming you were atr 100yds?

You then unfouled the barrel ........ why? How many rounds did you put through her up and until this point.

Then on the four shot group, 0.5gr is not enought to shift you point of impact 4" up and 3.5" left. Did you change the COL, was it different ammo, something must have changed for that big movement.

I know you say you have never had a problem with recoil bit if you say you hurt after 10 shots then there is a good chance that you could have a flinch and you should get a range buddy to test you for this.

Could you give us a little more info on your load;
Brass
Primer
Powder
Bullet type and mass
COL
Jump

The one thing about range work has to be consistency. If you shoot 3 shoot groups then keep it this way. The other thing about range day it that you need to be totally comfortable at the bench, does not sound like you are, probably the most important thing for me is having the same seat height. I bought a drummers chair and have a measurement from seat top to bench top. I dial my seat height in first, this assures me of the same physical "attitude" when addressing the rifle.

Good luck

 

[Pripyat]

Second group was on a different target. Paper has one in the center and four on the corners.

The last shot (left group) was the 10th round out the bbl.

Also - no noticeable pain at all. Went to a different range and was much more comfortable this go-round. Can't tell I shot yesterday pain-wise.

I may be flnching some but it can't be much. Every single shot I made I was able to hold the gun steady and slowly apply trigger pressure until the gun discharged.

These were slower rounds around 2500 fps. I believe 54 and 54.5grn of 4895 if I remember correctly. Would have to check my notes to be sure.

Edit - sorry for being ambiguous. I cleaned the bbl before the range trip. Shot two foulers at another target and then aimed at the center of the target I pictured. Made 4 shots. Then aimed at the top left target and shot 4 more with a different charge.

2nd edit: Was going through my targets this morning - Here are two three-shot groups from the same shooting setup before I put the rifle in the laminate stock. Note POI is several inches different than it was with the laminate stock.. I also think that it is pretty clear that the rifle is more accurate with the laminate stock. I think once I work up a load for the rifle, get it bedded, get the barrel a little more seasoned, and get it bedded I'll be in business!





All the loads pictured are standard CCI LPP, winchester new brass FL sized, trimmed to book value, bullet depth to book value, no crimp, sierra 168 grain HPBT, and some variation of 4895 or Varget. I load a single round in the magazine and load a single round each time I fire.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

OK see where you are going.

It helps to paint a better picture then you get better advice. The PITA is that it takes time to chronologically log what you have done with photo's but it is worth it, for both parties.

For your own convenience mark your targets with a sharpie with bullet and load followed by anything you changed ........ you will forget and these targets can be very valuable information going forward.

Again good luck as you proceed.

 

[Pripyat]

Not sure if I should make a thread for this project but I have a general question about the weapon mentioned earlier in this thread.

I picked up a Boyd's stock for a Howa 1500 / Vanguard. It closed my groups up a little but I am convinced that I need to brush up on my long range shooting abilities so I'm going to re-do my testing with the factory stock at a later date. I am looking into pillar bedding the Howa into the Boyd's stock and found that when the recoil lug is torqued down, the point of the rifle that makes contact with the stock is actually the barrel. The first inch or so of the barrel groove in the stock is around 20 thousandths taller than the height of the bottom of the recoil lug to the bottom of the barrel.

I hope all that makes sense - In short, when I tighten the recoil lug the bottom of the recoil lug is not touching the stock at all. It is 15-20 thousandths off the bottom of the stock and the force from the recoil lug screw is all being transferred to the barrel and not the action.

Is this correct? Seems wrong to me. :/

EDIT: Disregard this post. I found that the stock was contacting at the sides of the receiver before the barrel contacted the stock. But, the barrel would have touched the stock before the recoil lug did if the sides of the stock were trimmed down or removed.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

It is correct.

When you glass bed you will leave clearance at the bottom, sides and front of the lug. This is to ensured that the thick end of the barrel (at the receiver) pulls into the bedding and does not bottom on the lug leaving a miniscule gap that will reverberate.

When you pillar bed the lug will come into contact with the pillars bottoming out.

Slighly different philosophy's but both work. If you can have the rifle glass and pillar bedded.

 

[Pripyat]

My understanding was that you tape the bottom/sides of the recoil lug if you pillar bed? Seems like a lot of different philosophies out there but I'm not sure which one to go with. I'm pillar bedding.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

On all my rifles the front mounting screw goes into the recoil lug so;

Glass bedding, tape the bottom of the recoil lug so you can pull the action down onto the bedding and that clearance will allow you to do that.

Glass and pillar bedding, no tape as the pillar needs to meet the action, in my case the recoil lug, the whole point of pillar bedding.

If you have holes in your action and not the recoil lug then you tape the recoil lug for both normal and pillar bedding.

 

[Potatohead]

You gotta get the shooter's lingo down, too. If you have a witness to your poor shooting, you need to know how to authoritatively say something like, " I'm still dialing her in."

LOL

 

[Schwing]

If my first shot is a bullseye, I call it good and go home...

seriously though, I shoot 1 foul shot and then go with groupings of 5. I don't discount flyers either. If I am getting 1 or more per grouping then I am either having a really bad day or my load isn't as good as I think it is.

 

[James2]

Fluke
coincidence
ternd
MOA

I am a hunter. I shoot enough paper to sight in the rifle. To me I could care less about the aforementioned. To me the name of the game is, "HIT THE TARGET!"

If that x ring on your target is about 1.5 inches, then I would expect to put every round within the x ring. It has to be that way if you expect to hit a target the size of a squirrel at 100 yards. If I can't do that, its back to the drawing board.

Furthermore to a hunter, that first shot is often the most important one. Don't disregard it.

I have played with a lot of rifles over the years, and most are capable of the kind of accuracy I mention. Yes the bedding is of concern. I have at times improved a rifle's consistency by simply loosening the stock screws and re-tightening them. Many have suggested the barrel should free float. (some things to play with)

Be sure your scope mounting screws are tight. Nothing like a loose screw here to mess you up.

Triggers are another thing that can mess up a shooter. Be sure your trigger is crisp and clean. If not have a competent gunsmith tune it up.

When all of the above is in order, then much can sometimes be done with bullets and loads. Have fun!

I am going to edit this to add: In sighting in and testing rounds it is important to use a table and sandbags. Remove as much operator error as you can so that the results mean something about the rifle and loads.

 

[James2]

Close groups are nice, however if they are off target, they are misses as far as a hunter is concerned. Come on folks adjust those sights so your shots are on target! If you can hit the target plus have good groups then you nave accomplished something.

The barrel sits below the scope, because of this the bullet in its travel crosses the line of sight at a distance of about 60 feet from the rifle. It then travels above the line of sight for a ways then comes back down to the line of sight at the distance the rifle is sighted in for.

In the initial sight in it is good to shoot at 60 feet and adjust those sights to be on target at that range, then move out to 100 yards and you will at least be on the paper.

 

[Pripyat]

I take ANSI E paper (34"x44") to the range and am yet to not be on paper at 100 yards.

I don't understand people messing around with 50 yard shots to get on paper. That is ridiculous. Come on people, get your stuff together.

If I'm on paper at 100 yards it is time to shoot groups! Woot!

 

[Pripyat]

So I pillar bedded the weapon today.. Waiting on it to cure.

Hoping it turns out OK. I made my own pillars on the drill press and used devcon putty for the bedding compound. I'm a little nervous that the action isn't going to want to come out the stock easily but all I can do is wait and see.. I'm expecting around 100fps muzzle velocity increase along with reduced recoil and increased projectile BC. This is going to be great! Should have done this years ago!

[edit] Range report within the week (I hope)

 

[Andrew Leigh]

So I pillar bedded the weapon today.. Waiting on it to cure.

Hoping it turns out OK. I made my own pillars on the drill press and used devcon putty for the bedding compound. I'm a little nervous that the action isn't going to want to come out the stock easily but all I can do is wait and see.. I'm expecting around 100fps muzzle velocity increase along with reduced recoil and increased projectile BC. This is going to be great! Should have done this years ago!

[edit] Range report within the week (I hope)

Why would bedding increase velocity, reduce recoil and increase BC?

 

[Pripyat]

joke..

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Ok you got me on that one good one.

I have not had a rifle that I have bedded that had not shown real improvement in accuracy so good luck.

 

[Pripyat]

Sooo excited about the rifle! Bedding job came out exceeding my expectations. Came out the stock this morning with minimal effort. Great thing is the moment the front popped loose the entire thing came unbound which to me indicates that there is little to no play in the compound.. Especially considering the rear is not a continuous piece of putty with the front. It is such a tight fit. I believe I could invert the rifle without the screws installed and the action wouldn't budge.

I do need to dremel some spots down as I didn't clean up as much as I should have before the compound cured. Range report soon!

BTW I was thinking about my expectations here. Is it unreasonable to expect 10 shots in .75" with the vanguard + trigger upgrade + pillar bedding?

 

[Andrew Leigh]

If you could shoot 10 in .75MOA that it would be testatment to some awesome shooting skills. I very much doubt I could shoot that, I do not practice enough. Not to say that the rifle will not be capable, it's is generally our inconsistency. You get rifle accuracy and you get shooter accuracy.

I remember a friend being on the range unable to get better than 1.5MOA due to the "poor quality" 30-06 ammo he had bought. There happened to by a National Junior champion on the range that day so my friend, trying to prove a point, asked the youngster to please take 3 shots with his rifle to validate his opinion. The youngster shot a classic one hole cloverleaf? A humbling experience for my friend who had be muttering from after his first group.

The law of averages would suggest that for every round fired the chances of operator error increases. Read this article as a matter of interest.

http://www.the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis.htm

 

[Walkalong]

The law of averages would suggest that for every round fired the chances of operator error increases.

Yep. Here are two targets, same day, same rifle, same shooter (Me), both 5 shot groups. 5 in the group on the left, with 4 in and 1 out on the group on the right. In unlimited class we shot 10 shot groups, and yes, it is much harder to get 10 in the group than 5.

 

[Pripyat]

Did the first pass of clean-up. Still need to take some material off to square everything up.



My issue is, just now learning long range rifle shooting, I don't really have access to a very accurate rifle to learn on much less do load development. Smallest 5 shot group I have seen out the vanguard is right at 2". I dont have any friends that can shoot well at long range (unfortunately my best friend who did 2 tours in Iraq took his own life a couple months ago). So I'm on my own for the most part. Dang him. So hard not to blame him.

Anyway, going to start a newer more appropriately titled thread once the range report is in. I'll link it here.

[Edit] 20mph winds all day, high of 40... May not hear from me for a while..

 

[Bart B.]

Two good chunks of info on the subject....

Here's a statistical way to look at it:

http://www.the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis.htm

Then there's what Lake City Arsenal did with their .30-06 M72 National Match ammo made for the 1966 National Matches. Scroll down to the post on the 1965 M118 National Match ammo and check out that 270-shot test group at 600 yards that's a bit over 10 inches in diameter:

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=512887

That group reminds me of a conversation I had with a Lake City Arsenal ballistics man about a bad lot of match ammo a military team had. He said that they had a new hire helping them test a lot of XM118 prototype 7.62 NATO match ammo tested in a barreled M1903 action in a Mann rest. They got the 200+ round 600-yard test target that had a group about 11 inches in diameter. He said to the new hire: "Look at all those half-inch 5-shot groups!!" To which the apprentice said: "Yes, they're impressive. Too bad they're not all at the same place." Then the old man said: "You'll do good here." Arsenal accuracy specs for their 30 caliber and 7.62 NATO match ammo's been 3.5 inches mean radius for decades. All shots fired will have an extreme spread 3 to 5 times larger than the mean radius.

Personally, I judge accuracy by the largest group shot of several. In my own tests, a 25-shot composite of five 5-shot groups is bigger than the largest single group. That tells me where near all the bullets will go. Not where a few will occasionally cluster and are rarely centered on the point of aim.

 

[PPS43]

I judge accuracy by the largest group shot of several.

Taking the average of several consecutive groups is actually better than looking at the largest group. In your example CV (noise to signal ratio) of average of 5 five-shot groups is 0.12, CV of largest of 5 five-shot groups is 0.16.

Still better than the smallest group, though - CV there is 0.21 (and that's what people usually show to others).