Mindset: Fighting Back - "Natalie" in San Antonio

[Fred Fuller]

http://www.woai.com/content/news/ne...victim-speaks-out/dYHzTz-GXEiWwkQG6w4Sgw.cspx
HEB assault victim speaks out
Reported by: Mireya Villarreal
Published: 12/20 9:08 pm
Updated: 12/21 8:28 am

"He told me not to yell or he was going to hurt me. He was going to shoot me or stab me. Once he said that, I yelled at the top of my lungs. I didn't even think twice about it, I started fighting back. I started kicking him and punching him,” she said.

...

She added, “When he told me, I'm going to hurt you and shoot you, I thought go ahead and try it because I'm going to fight back. If you hit me I'm going to hit you right back.”

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I often suggest readers here who have not yet read it, obtain a copy of Jeff Cooper's essential little primer on mindset, Principles of Personal Defense (http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Principles_of_Personal_Defense/Other_Combat_Shooting).
[/I] The sixth principle is RUTHLESSNESS... and the seventh is SURPRISE.

I'm very glad "Natalie" was able to fight off her attacker, and survived the attack thereby. But I wish even more she had not had to fight in the first place.

I always encourage people I care about not to linger in parking lots in unlocked cars. Get in - LOCK UP - buckle up - crank up and DRIVE. Don't just sit there.

As always, if you can AVOID the attack, you don't have to FIGHT OFF the attacker...

 

[orangeninja]

She flipped the coin and won, I'm glad for her and she obviously did the right thing in taking control away from the perp but this could have just as easily been a homicide story had he been effective with stabbing her in the neck. Either way she had nothing to lose in fighting back as I'm sure he'd be just as willing to kill her in the time and place of his choosing as he was when he had little or no control over the situation. I hope someone shoots this guy...

I wonder how come nobody helped?

 

[dusty14u]

If she saw him heading for her across the parking lot why wouldn't she lock the doors? Why did she ignore her base feeling that something was wrong? I am glad she was ok but it seemed she had situational awareness and then ignored it. At least she had the basic instinct to fight back with everything she had.

 

[SG1]

I'm glad she fought back instead of letting him take her to location "B". I think about this, especially at Christmas, every time my wife and I leave a store/mall and head to the car.

I forwarded the story to my wife. I think it's easy for people to think "it will never happen to me" but it does happen.

It reminds me of a line in the movie 'The Outlaw Joesy Wales'; "Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."

 

[Owen Sparks]

The only time a car door should be unlocked is when you are going through it. Locked doors are also safer if you are in a wreck as it makes them much less likely to come open on impact.

 

[danez71]

I'm glad she fought back instead of letting him take her to location "B".

Thats something Ive talked to my daughter (and wife) about.

Even if held at gun point.... do not get in the(ir) car thinking you'll get away later. At that point, consider it your last stand. You're better off being shot in a public parking lot than taken to the location of their choice and then being shot after possibly being violated in other ways.

 

[catnphx]

Agree 100% ... in fact, I just told my 17 year old daughter not to do this yesterday. She was meeting her Aunt at a large mall to pick-up Christmas gifts for my kids (their Aunt was giving the kids their presents). I told the Aunt and my daughter I didn't want her lingering in the parking lot, especially during the holiday season. They ended up meeting at the Barnes and Noble and then going back to the cars to exchange gifts.

Also, I've taught my wife and daughter to reverse buckle up and crank up when entering the car ... Get in - lock up - crank up - buckle up - drive. I want them to be prepared to move the car quickly just in case. Just my opinion.

I always encourage people I care about not to linger in parking lots in unlocked cars. Get in - LOCK UP - buckle up - crank up and DRIVE. Don't just sit there.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think Natalie made the right decision. Given how quickly our guy went into stabbing her in the neck, I'd say that a violent assault was inevitable from the moment he got in the door of the car. At that point, the only question is whether it will happen in a busy HEB parking lot where you might get help (either during or after) or in some deserted place after who knows what.

So many of the CHL self-defense stories I read have an element of "This can't be happening to me. It must be a joke. Everything is going to be OK" even when it is extremely clear from all the facts that everything is not going to be OK. I think predatory criminals often use this natural human instinct to encourage otherwise rational, logical people to take actions that are not at all in their best interest.

 

[beatledog7]

It's safer to avoid parking garages altogether if you can.

My daughter is a permit driver now, and too young to legally carry a firearm, so she gets pepper spray.

One of the things I'm teaching her is how to be safe transiting to and from the car. I won't put her in a car that lacks remote locking/unlocking.

Park in the open, under a light, close to where you're going if possible. Look around as you choose your spot. Note exactly where you parked. Put your phone and other distractions away. Look around again before you unlock the door, and unlock only the door you're actually using. Get out and immediately relock the door as you go. One hand on the pepper spray in your pocket. Move with purpose directly to the entrance, and never stop checking your surroundings. Note exactly where you entered.

When you leave the building, use the same door by which you entered. If feasible, wait for a group of people to exit and go when they go. Stow your phone and other items. If you have bought something, stow it under you coat if possible. Don't exit until the way to your car is either devoid of other people or loaded with other people. Actually, lots of people around makes the way safer. One hand on the pepper spray. Keep your head on a swivel. Move to your car with purpose. If possible, vary your path so that before you get to the car you've been able to see all sides of it. Have the keys at hand, but do not unlock until you can touch the car. Again, unlock only the door you're using. Get in, lock the door. Start the car. Stow your items only inasmuch is required to keep them from being in your way driving. Buckle up. Drive.

You can organize yourself and your items once you're out on the road and stopped at a signal.

 

[Serenity]

Maybe someone said it and I missed it:

Check the backseat/cargo space. I wish I hadn't tinted the windows on my Rav4 so dark, because I probably look kind of funny peering in there.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I recently went back to school to pursue a graduate degree in Physical Therapy. As I'm taking some sciences (mine are more than 4 years old) I'm in class with a broad swath of people.
We had a lockdown drill ( I called it the Cho drill), and as we were sitting in class under our desks trying to not be in view of the door's window (like duck and cover for Gen Y, I'm Gen X), the guys around me started talking about what they'd do if a shooter came in.

There were all in agreement that the best thing to do was whatever the shooter told them.
I engaged them and tried to change their minds, but they were all programmed in an odd sort of homogenous way to do what they were told and go along with the intruder.

I found it odd and told the kid that if someone came in the room I wasn't going to sit back and get killed without a fight.
He replied, "but you'll just make them mad and then they'll shoot the rest of us!":banghead:

 

[Fred Fuller]

they were all programmed in an odd sort of homogenous way to do what they were told and go along with the intruder

Mindset can work against your survival as well as in favor of it. Thing is, each of us gets to choose our own mindset and cultivate it to serve our chosen ends.

 

[Tim Burke]

She flipped the coin and won, I'm glad for her and she obviously did the right thing in taking control away from the perp but this could have just as easily been a homicide story had he been effective with stabbing her in the neck. Either way she had nothing to lose in fighting back as I'm sure he'd be just as willing to kill her in the time and place of his choosing as he was when he had little or no control over the situation.

So really, she didn't flip her coin at all. She chose to resist at the beginning, when the perp had less control, when there were more witnesses, and there was a faster more effective 9-1-1 response. The fact that he got in the car makes me believe he intended to take her somewhere else. That indicates that this was not a simple armed robbery. He had a plan, and he needed to take her somewhere where her screams would not be heard. Had she gone with him to the secondary crime scene he would not have been frightened off, and she would've been found dead, if she was ever found at all.
Doing the right thing does not guarantee you won't be killed. It is still the right thing.

 

[X-Rap]

I have given the "Principles" to many people particularly women to read, some look and roll their eyes and others say I could never do that while others take it to heart. It's a shame that we live in such a Pollyanna world, it supplies predators with an unlimited supply of victims.
Good to see some are fighting back.

 

[chieftain]

"they were all programmed in an odd sort of homogenous way to do what they were told and go along with the intruder"

Mindset can work against your survival as well as in favor of it. Thing is, each of us gets to choose our own mindset and cultivate it to serve our chosen ends.

Absolutely. Very good observation, Lee.

I have two daughters, both can shoot. The oldest chooses not to carry, but has also been put through a couple high quality Female oriented non-gun self defense courses. (Note: she does carry a fighting folding knife, and as trained with it) Her gun of choice when cornered to choose was a Glock 30.

My Youngest (24) is a "gunny" and shoots weekly matches with me at times (At home it is her Colt Combat Elite and she carries CCW/EDC a Springfield EMP 9). She is only 4'10", and it makes sense. She also studied and still studies, martial arts, several systems. Don't mess with Daddy's little girls.

I figure my main contribution, has been a concept of "Never Give Up". You haven't lost until you quit.

I will not disagree with, or in anyway denigrate someone who has survived an incident by conciliation. That is their way, but not mine, and my daughters for better or worse are both fighters.

I am either to stubborn, stupid, or just contrarian enough to not do what someone else is trying to force me to do. I would rather go down attacking a gunman with my folder, than concede. "Some time's a man has got to do, what a man's got to do." Doesn't always end well either. MY CHOICE, not his.

I do advise and recommend, that all of you, give a copy of "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker to every woman you know and care about, regardless of her age. I did, including my mother when she was still alive.

Merry Christmas, and may peace find all men.

Fred

 

[Deltaboy1984]

It is not the size of the Dog in the Fight but the size of the Fight in the Dog. Mind , Skill Set. Good for this woman and Congrads to the men here who are teaching their daughters how not abused.

 

[bikerdoc]

Mindset.

Small m = Dont bother me I wont bother you.

Big M = Bother me and some one is getting hurt. It may be you, it may be me, let us proceed and find out.

 

[Seagoing]

There's a book called "Strong On Defense".
It has the very same idea - fight back immediately.
Don't let them run the show, because it will never end well.

If you fight back you MIGHT get hurt, but if you let them control you then you WILL get hurt.

 

[Leanwolf]

Speaking of Jeff Cooper and his ideas on self defense, here is a video of Cooper speaking of same. The first part is an introduction, and there is an echo with the audio. Nevertheless, it is very interesting to listen to Cooper.

If you want to skip the introduction, go to 1:05 minutes of the video when Jeff comes on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGYttXa0d1k

L.W.

 

[skoro]

always encourage people I care about not to linger in parking lots in unlocked cars. Get in - LOCK UP - buckle up - crank up and DRIVE. Don't just sit there.

Good advice that I give out, too.

Both of my brothers are LEOs and they say that dawdling around when getting into or out of a vehicle is activity that attracts predators.

 

[orangeninja]

So really, she didn't flip her coin at all. She chose to resist at the beginning, when the perp had less control, when there were more witnesses, and there was a faster more effective 9-1-1 response. The fact that he got in the car makes me believe he intended to take her somewhere else. That indicates that this was not a simple armed robbery. He had a plan, and he needed to take her somewhere where her screams would not be heard. Had she gone with him to the secondary crime scene he would not have been frightened off, and she would've been found dead, if she was ever found at all.
Doing the right thing does not guarantee you won't be killed. It is still the right thing.

By "flip her coin" when she chose to fight I meant she took the chance that she could win. The implication is that she could also have lost. I don't think anyone would disagree that she did the right thing but it might have turned out bad despite her actions. Fighting back is no promise of survival.

 

[Deanimator]

Fighting back is no promise of survival.

Submitting CERTAINLY isn't. The Holocaust and 9/11 are only the two biggest examples. The slaughter of the doctor's family in Connecticut by the two savages is a typical one.

No plan I have or ever will have is contingent upon the good judgment, common sense and basic human decency of a violent criminal. If you HAD good judgment, common sense and basic human decency, you wouldn't BE a robber or rapist.

Even if I do APPEAR to submit, it's only a ruse. My reaction to the immediate threat of deadly force is the application of overwhelming deadly force with the utmost violence, until the threat is ended. That overwhelming application of overwhelming deadly force might be deferred until your attention is momentarily diverted. In any case, I'm NEVER going ANYWHERE with a violent assailant.

Some people's philosophy seems to be, "If you can't trust a violent felon, whom CAN you trust???"

 

[orangeninja]

Submission is no promise of survival either. The point is the reality of a violent encounter is what it is, a game of high stakes chance thrust upon a victim likely when they are the least prepared for it. Fighting back ensures a violent encounter. Not fighting back does not necessarily mean the encounter will not be violent though it may be, for example a robbery situation such as at a gas station, most do not result in homicides, some do. In all situations where the clerk fights violence is 100% guaranteed and the good guys don't always win.

In this situation a violent encounter was already taking place and was 100% guaranteed, when she fought back she stole the initiative from the attacker which turns out, was enough. If you are already being attacked you have to mentally resign any notion of a peaceful outcome (which some people cannot do). I think the movie The Outlaw Josey Wales has about the best quote on this out there: “Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.”

I’m not advocating consenting to an assailant, but I also do not think a “fight no matter what” mindset is conducive to survival either. If survival and not “winning” is what is really important then the scenario and circumstances should dictate your action. Your primary weapon is your brain…not whatever is stuffed in your waistband or pocket.