Mini 14 or Saiga (acuracy)

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Rupestris

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I've been reading some of the posts about the Mini14 and the biggest drawback seems to be the acuracy (or peoples opinion of it). I'm starting to get the itch for a semi-auto in .223 but I can't spend the money that an AR would set me back right now. I've seen Mini 14's in the $400 range and the Saiga .223 for $229.
This rifle will not be a HD weapon. Simply a plinking rifle for my son and I. If the acuracy of the Saiga is at least comperable to the Mini I might as well save a couple hundred. right? or wrong?
Bottom line, will they both shoot minute-of-beer can at 50yd? 75? 100? could my son work on his open sights shooting at the range and not feel like he's wasting his time?
Thanks,
Rupe
 
I have not shot a Saiga, but the folks at AK-47.net think pretty highly of them. I believe the consensus is they are more accurate than a Mini. One of the better AK variants. Just repeating what I've read.
 
Saigas are a great bargain and quite accurate out of the box. Think....2 MOA with decent ammo for the 16 inch .223. If you really like it, you can always have it converted to accept standard capacity mags and a pistol grip like a standard pattern AK.
 
I owned a stainless 223 ranch rifle in the early 90's, sold it after a few years mainly because I needed the money. I never bought another one because even though mine functioned perfectly, the lack of accuracy was rather disappointing.
My opinion: forget the mini-14.
It will not shoot as accurate as a Colt Sporter will unless you put an aftermarket/match barrel on it--but then it will cost as least as much as a Colt Sporter, and the Colt has a far wider variety of magazines and accessories to choose from.
If you want to plink cheap, Saiga wins the price war.
~
 
Thanks for the reminder!

I've always found the Mini 14 trigger to be better than the average semi-auto out there.
 
I have owned two Mini-14s and found the accuracy (if you want to stretch that term) of both very disappointing. If "plinking" means 25 yards, it'd be OK. At 100 yards, the shots were all over, more or less without regard to brand or bullet weight.
 
Prior Minis I have owned were of disappointment in accuracy. When Ruger changed it to a 1 in 9 twist, they improved. I had a Ranch that was very accurate and had to sell it some years ago. It was replaced by a Ranch about a year ago. For some reason, it loves LC 74. I have had 1" groups at 100 yards. Other lots and loads (55 grain BT) were about 1 1/2 to 2 inches. I have a standard stainless Mini,open sights, that at 100 yards is 2" to 3" groups.
Byron
 
Tips on Mini-14's...

Good ammo (carefully built handloads, or Federal Gold Match)

do something with that damn slippery buttplate - Brownells sells some that are steel, or else get one of the Minis with the rubber buttplate. You'll never hit anything with the slick plastic plate, the gun squirts around too much in recoil.

I had a Mini about 10 years ago, and handloads would easily do 1 MOA, even with a low mag scope. Stupidly, I sold it, thinking they were illegal in CA. :cuss:
 
I've owned 2 mini 14's and own 4 AK's in 7.62. Even my worst shooting AK's have easily out shot my mini's at 100 yards.
 
I've had 2 Mini 14's, a Mini 30, and just picked up a SAR3 .223 AK. Now I know this isn't a Saiga, but it's close in many respects ... and my advice is get the AK.

What I'm going to say will cause the 1 in 50 guys who got an accurate Mini 14 to stand up and call me a liar, but it's the truth that most Mini owners experience.

It is THE most inaccurate rifle you can buy. Like JNewell, the problem with the Mini is that you seldom find anything large enough to shoot at at 100 yds to catch all your bullets, even off a bench. The Mini is literally the modern-day equivelent of the old smoothbore musket (at least all THREE of mine were). I called it the World's Only 25-Yard Rifle.

Also, the AK is MUCH easier to fieldstrip for cleaning.

Lastly, instead of a common Weaver mount, Ruger uses a retarded proprietory scope mounting system so that you'll be forced to pay them $50 for higher rings. At least I don't know of anyone else making rings to fit it. It would be differnt if Ruger rings were exemplary in some way, but all they really do is complicate your life because they're so mediocre. Ruger includes the lowest rings known to man with Ranch rifles, so I couldn't mount anything but the smallest-objective scope and still be able to set it for the right eye relief. I needed higher rings, so I bought a couple pair at their extortive prices. You can buy a Weigand Weaver Rail mount that will allow you to use regular rings, but at the time I didn't know that. I don't know if they still make them or not. How asinine to have to convert the Mini, as if they couldn't have set it up right to begin with.

As a side benefit, the Ruger rings always came loose during even moderate amounts of firing. Of course, I was not going to Loc-tite quick detach mounts, so that was very unrewarding, especially since the Minis ate a lot of scopes I used. I was constantly switching/experimenting with optics in an effort to find something it wouldn't break, and the hard lesson was that the Mini practically beats itself to death during recoil. You'll need to invest in a really, really good scope for it. And then it still won't shoot well, so what have you gained?

I'll post on my SAR3 as soon as my scope mount arrives.
 
I have dealt with Minis for 20+ years and find the infomation of Mighty beagle to not concur with my findings. In an earlier post on this subject, I acknowledge the accuracy problems with earlier Minis but have always had at about 4" groups at 100 yards out of the worst. The newer ones with a 1 in 9 have contributed greatly to improved accuracy. In regard to the Rannch model and rings, I tighten the Ruger rings very tight without loctite and have no loosening. Byron
 
Hello Byron. I’m happy that your experience was so positive. If only mine had been like yours ... but after getting 9†+ groups with each of my Minis at one point or another, I couldn’t disagree with you more vehemently. It is for this reason that I respond, not because I want to argue, but because in an academic sense I’m fascinated as to why so many people have wildly varying experiences with the Mini 14.

In short, I want to know what you are doing right. Obviously, if I’ve bought $1500 in Mini rifles, I like the concept and want it to work in the real world. Maybe you could help me solve the mystery.

Here is what baffles me:

1. Had my experience only been with ONE rifle, I could see how it could be a fluke. It was THREE rifles. Such consistent inconsistency is really an aberration, really.

2. Is it that I just can’t shoot? I have always been able to obtain at least 2†groups with my other rifles, like my 7mm Rem. Mag. without even really trying. I guess that’s why I never really shot my rifles much ... but the Minis were different. I liked shooting them and didn’t mind testing them. Probably 1/3 of my lifetime rifle shooting has taken place with a Mini in hand.

3. Is it that I can’t measure groups? With my other rifles, a 3-shot or 5-shot group is measured center-to-center with a tape measure from my shooting bag. These rifles produce groups that are more or less circular, and very consistent - 10 rounds gives you one ragged hole. The Minis however would produce a wandering zero during the SLOWEST of slow-fire. Twenty rounds would not all be in a nice 9†circle or “shotgun patternâ€. I could work with that. But no, each 5-shot string would be, say 9 inches, but the 9" groups would be on different parts of the target. I’d be all day trying to zero the rifle with each new reload, but to no avail.

4. Why wouldn’t I have discovered the magic load for at least one of these rifles?
I put everything I could buy or cobble together through my Minis to no avail. Each one in its own right was an ongoing reloading project, each broader in spectrum than the last.

5. Did I just own a Mini that was of the wrong rifling twist? I had a Mini 14 in 1994 and a Mini 14 Ranch in 1999. At least the latter one would be the “new improved†1 in 9, right? No luck with accuracy though. And if it’s a matter of rifling twist, why would the Mini 30 shooting be shooting so poorly as well? It hated both .308 and .310 bullets.

I’ll tell you why I think these guns all performed similarly, and why some on the Internet have really accurate ones. I think Ruger has issues with production and quality control. My one glimpse of accuracy came when my Dad had been fooling with my Mini 30 and tightened the Allen screws up near the gas block. For a little while, my gun would produce 1.5†groups at 100 yds. Unfortunately, the accuracy diminished and subsequent efforts couldn’t get it back. I finally became convinced once and for all that it was just a mysterious mechanical/fitting issue and that there was probably nothing I could do to correct it. I also remembered the half-dozen Ruger handguns I’ve purchased with fitting/out-of-spec component issues, and it wasn’t hard to infer that Ruger may have similar issues with the Mini.

IMHO, these guns are not all bad, some are very accurate. But it’s a crap shoot as to what kind you’ll get, and if you get a bad one, there just isn’t anything you can do to overcome it. Again, this is all based on my 9 years of dealing with three rifles. YMMV.
 
Andrew, do you have a link on how to re-torque it? Or how to add a muzzle break? Sounds like some in-depth gunsmithing to me. Is it within the reach of the average shooter, or do you need special tools/skills?

In all fairness to the Mini 14, I never knew to try those modifications. For all I know, they work like gangbusters.

I do feel that a muzzle break would make an already loud rifle unbearable though. Just my .02.
 
Mighty Beagle, yes, the Mini is a riddle. I increased accuracy on older ones by turning the screws about the barrel band 1/4 turn to loosen. I felt there was too much heat at this point after sustained shooting. The 2 newer ones have not required this. I measure groups from and to the center of the bullet holes. I can switch brands of 55 grain FMJ's and get different points of impact. I have an older AR with a 1 in 12 twist and it puts all brands of 55 grain FMJ's to almost the same point of impact. I have had good success with other Ruger products. I have a 77 in 257 Roberts that avg with my handloads (117 BTSP Hornady) about 1 1/2 " to 2" consitently. An older single six in 32 mag is very accurate at 25 yards, more so than my S&W 27. Byron
 
Saiga, Mini-14, humbug! Just save some more $$ and get an evil black-rifle! :D

FWIW, I have never seen a Mini-14 shooter having a "good" day at my local range. They are usually wondering why they can't hit the 3-foot wide 100 yard gong from sandbags. YMMV, as always.

Edited to add that I once had a Mini-14 shooter tell me the Mini was the world's most expensive way to tell you that you can't shoot.
 
Although the post started with Mini 14 or Saiga, I have to agree with wanderinwalker. Save your money and get a quality AR-15. I have a Mini 14 in stainless with plastic furniture. Within 100 yards it is combat accurate I guess, if you consider 5 inch groups combat accurate. However, it is very reliable.

But my AR-15 Bushmaster HBAR Shorty is quite amazing in it's accuracy even with iron sights, and if you keep it clean, it will be very reliable as well. With the HBAR barrel you can shoot rapidly and have no problems. Can't say that about the Mini 14. I also like the ergonomics of the AR over the Mini.

Well, I am not going to sell my Mini - who knows, I might have to move to California some day, but today's Mini 14 is kind of expensive for what you get, and for a 300 or 400 dollars more, you can get something that won't dissapoint you.

Save your money and get an AR.
 
Thanks for all the replies everyone. I went down to the local sporting goods store and handled a Saiga. Its a bit nose heavy but the fit was pretty nice. I think the saiga gets the nod.
WW, yes I'm saving for my EBR but its not a .223. If I ever catch up with the house work and home improvements I'll get a FAL/Cetme/G3. If I really get my way it'll be a M14/M1A:D Right now the only range in my area is 100yards so a simple cheap .223 fits the bill pretty well. I need lots of practice anyway.:p
Thanks again,
Rupe
 
Well, as long as there is some kind of EBR in your future, okay. Besides, you'll get an AR someday anyway. :rolleyes: Resistance is futile!

Addendum: I am biased as I have been using an AR lately in preparation to start shooting Highpower in the spring.
 
Andrew, do you have a link on how to re-torque it? Or how to add a muzzle break? Sounds like some in-depth gunsmithing to me. Is it within the reach of the average shooter, or do you need special tools/skills?

I used a b square screwdriver kit to retorque the screws on mine. the perfectunion forums have a whole thread devoted to inexpensive and easy mini-14 accuracy tips. muzzle brake installation requires a pin punch. neither one is very hard to do or requires special skills.
 
There was an old article by Ed Harris (who in prior lives worked for Ruger and as tech staff for the NRA) that IIRC faulted, among other things, the basic design of the gas system parts.
 
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