Mini-14 vs .30 carbine?

[WardenWolf]

Out-of-spec to the caliber. They used a barrel that had a bore size not properly sized to the bullet it was shooting. Note that they later corrected this. The .30 Carbine cartridge was hotter than any handgun cartridge at the the time. The .357 came out later. Only then did handgun cartridges start approaching and even exceeding its power.

 

[Snowdog]

Over the past decade, I have developed a tremendous respect for the tiny M1 Carbine cartridge from its intended M1 Carbine platform. Obviously, the roughly 2000 FPS and 1000 FPE generated by the .30 carbine isn't impressive when compared to the ballistics typical of centerfire rifles, but that little 110gr slug still generates about the same energy as a .44 magnum from a revolver.

Some here or at TFL may remember my playdough tests years ago when I tested everything I could get my hands on, comparing expansion and penetration. I found the .30 Carbine in JSP would absolutely ruin the first plastic-wrapped 6x6" block, shredding the plastic and sending chuncks all about, mirroring the carnage of hot 125gr JHPs from a.357 magnum out of a 6" barrel.
However, unlike the the 125gr JHP .357 that would generally fragment almost completely withing the first block, leaving a short shank and shallow penetration (around 12" in playdough at 75 degrees fahrenheit), the 110gr Remington .30 Carbine would, after trashing the first block in similar fashion if not more violently so, continue to penetrate all 18" of playdough (I had a standard of three 6x6" blocks) and exit into the berm. Only after adding a rag box behind an additional block (amounting to 24") was I able to recover the .30 Carbine JSP. I found expansion to be somewhere around .45 caliber.

I found it impressive this little slug was able to shred the first few inches akin to a hot .357 JHP, yet continue to punch a .45 caliber hole through the remaining 18" of playdough. This from an inexpensive Universal.
After witnessing these result of my informal playdough massacre, I came to the conclusion that maybe 15 rounds of 110gr .30 Carbine JSPs wasn't a combination to thumb my nose at for ranges within perhaps 100 yards for rural defense against man or beast.

During subsequent informal tests involving my newer Kahr/AO, I found the 110gr FMJ to penetrate solid objects FAR better than I had previously giving it credit for. I haven't any doubt the .30 Carbine would likely punch completely through the average size torso after penetrating a car door at a range of 100 yards; another reason I would choose a JHP or JSP in this chambering for HD.

So, though I cannot say the .30 Carbine is in any way better than the .223, I do have great respect for the .30 Carbine cartridge from the War Baby. I believe the disdain some have for it is spawned from a misguided attempt to compare it to the Garand's .30-06 Gov't or other full-fledged rifle cartridges. I also believe the stories of inadequate penetration of the .30 Carbine during wartime are, frankly, bunk.

 

[WardenWolf]

The inadequate penetration has largely been proven to be bunk. How many times have you heard "I KNOW I hit it!"? Yeah, that's a lie I'm sure you've heard before, particularly you hunters. That's basically what happened. Soldiers who couldn't hit crap blaming it on their gun. Keep in mind that Carbines were mostly issued to second line or non-combat troops (engineers, medics, etc.) who did not get nearly as much experience with their weapon. That was the whole point of the Carbine: shooting wasn't their primary job, so they didn't need to be carrying around a full size battle rifle.

Interestingly enough, my late grandfather was in the Signal Corps in WWII. He carried an M1 Carbine. He qualified as a Marksman, and he said he would have qualified as a Sharpshooter except that they forced them to qualify with the M1 Garand. His shoulder couldn't take that kind of punishment (he was thin as a rail) and by the 3rd day of qualification his shoulder was bruised and he was flinching. They didn't even have him training with the weapon he was to be issued. I imagine that wasn't the only time that happened. I now have the Carbine he bought after the war when the army liquidated them.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I don't know if at affects much, though .223 has more energy.

 

[MP-44]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot19.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu67.htm

 

[Ned Kelly]

Fact is, the Mini-14 was intended by Ruger to be a .223 version of the M1 Carbine. It uses largely the same operating mechanism, and looks and otherwise functions just the same. New Mini-14's are also quite accurate; it was the earlier ones with out-of-spec barrels that gave it its poor reputation. The M1 Carbine cartridge slightly exceeds .357 Magnum ballistics and power. However, it is still within the handgun range. The .223 is within the rifle range, and greatly exceeds the power, range, and penetration of the M1 Carbine round. However, at the ranges you are likely to use such a rifle, it typically will not matter; without a scope, your effective range is probably going to be well within both cartridges' effective ranges. Ultimately it depends on what you are intending to use it for. If hunting is on your agenda, go Mini-14.

Out of respect for the mini-14, the first generation series had a 1 in 12 twist rate and was rather accurate compared to second generation mini-14s with 1 in 7 twist.

When discussing the use of ammo from 40 grain to 55 grain.

1 in 7 is for heavy bullets.

3rd generation is more accurate I agree however. well at least in the target model with the adjustable accuracy thingy.

 

[amd6547]

No, the GI mag pouch wasn't designed to go on the butt of the carbine, but enterprising GI's soon discovered that it would. There are plenty of pics of WWII GI's doing so.
Yes, it does change the balance of the weapon, but once you get used to it, the change feels just fine.
I am convinced that the stories of poor penetration, mainly from Korea, have some basis in fact, based on reading first hand stories. These problems may have been based on the extreme cold in northern Korea, and on home made vests the Chinese wore under their thick padded cotton parkas, parkas which were often partially wet and frozen.
I read a book recently about the battle known as "the frozen Chosin". It specifically mentions how men with carbines were told to aim for the head, due to problems penetrating the Chinese uniforms. While some of these marines ended up in northern Korea without even attending boot camp (true), many others were veterans of the Pacific war, and knew their way around combat shooting. Temps were around minus 30, and this may have affected WWII ammo which may have been stored improperly.
None of this matters to those of us who have a good GI carbine and late production modern expanding bullet ammo.
My own CMP carbine will shoot a group the size of a large orange at 100yds without trying very hard. The Mini I had couldn't come close to that performance. I do believe the 5.56 is a superior battle cartridge, but for HD use, I am quite satisfied with the 357mag-like performance of the 30 carbine.
Besides, what is the price of a current Mini14? I bet it is alot more than a service grade GI Inland from the CMP ($495).

 

[MP-44]

I am convinced that the stories of poor penetration, mainly from Korea, have some basis in fact, based on reading first hand stories. These problems may have been based on the extreme cold in northern Korea, and on home made vests the Chinese wore under their thick padded cotton parkas, parkas which were often partially wet and frozen.

Not true
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

 

[amd6547]

Yes, I am sure the box of truth trumps first hand reports from those who were there at the chosin.
In order for this test to be meaningful, they would have to use the same WWII ammo, stored under the same conditions, and fired at -30 into identical Chinese clothing half frozen, layered over the same underlying vest I read about.
The test by box of truth disproves nothing.

 

[MP-44]

If the WWII ammo functioned and cycled the Carbine it had to be shooting at acceptable pressure. I think the BOT proved the Carbine had more than enough penetration.

 

[.45Guy]

Hmmm after reading the past several posts, the first half of my sig line is making more and more sense...

 

[ArmedBear]

I thought a Mini-14 has a 1:10" twist rate.

 

[amd6547]

No one doubts that 30 carbine ammo in good condition has plenty of penetration under normal operating conditions. The chosin reservoir was not normal conditions, and the ammo used may not have been in good condition.
We are getting way OT here.
Suffice it to say, I am a fan of the carbine, and my CMP Inland is in my HD rotation, and I prefer it in that role to my AR or AK. I am also sure that there is some truth to the stories of problems I have read by first hand participants of the Battle of the Chosin Reservoir. Read the accounts I have, and you will be too.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I've got both.

To me, the M-1 is a long pistol in the sense of a cavalry carbine. It fills the niche of a pistol for those that aren't competent with pistols, a close-in defense weapon, and a short-range assault weapon.

The Mini-14 is, as it is labelled, a miniature battle rifle. It is longer-ranged, somewhat more powerful, and more accurate past 100 yards.

By my opinion, I think that the mini-14 would have served well in the European theater during WWII, where the longer ranges and heavier cover reduced the m-1's effectiveness.

The M-1 did very well in the Pacific, where shorter ranges and wave attacks would favor the more pistol-like firearm.

As further evidence, consider the introduction of the M-2 auto-carbine, which served in Europe and Korea. It was an attempt to cover for the long-range short-comings of the M-1 by increasing the volume of fire - a retreat to the volley-fire concept. Sadly, the M-2's mechanism was too finicky under extreme conditions.

Bottom line: Garands were the right weapon for Europe and much of Korea, with the M-1 carbine filling a relatively small niche between the pistol and the grease gun. The Mini-14 would probably have served better in this area.

The Mini-14 probably would have shone in the Pacific, but more at the expense of the Garand than the M-1 carbine.

 

[BENELLIMONTE]

I purchased my Mini 14 Ranch in 2004. I am not sure if that qualifys it as 2nd generation, 3rd generation or what? It is accurate enough for targets out to 150 yds or so. My buddys M1 is not really accurate out to more than 75yds or so. I think you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare the Mini 14 .223 vs the M1 .30cal These weapons were designed with different uses in mind.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Thanks,
"Monte"

 

[Ned Kelly]

It could also depend on how cold the Chinese were. If their body temperature was lower than normal except at the subsurface core than some injuries may have bled slower than they normally would have in warmer weather. Even the outer surface of their body may have reached a level of numbness due to the cold.

Unless of course they were drunk.

If they were drunk, than on the other end of the pendulum , that might explain why they seemed to shrug off hits. Being less concious of what is happening to them.

However We see the same complaints from GIs using 5.56. They claim enemy combatants are shrugging off center mass hits.

The culprit is not the gun. It's the ammunition. Ball ammo is simply not an effective manstopper unless it's in a caliber like .45 acp. Even 7.62 NATO can overpenetrate and not stop an enemy soldier.

 

[easyrider604]

As someone mentioned earlier. This thread has gone way OT.

My question is would the Mini-14 with Ruger 20 rd mags not hold up as well as the .30 carbine used in WW11 ?

Yes, my opinion is that the Mini-14 should hold up as well as the M1 carbine, and that is supported by many previous posts in this thread.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

"Ball ammo is simply not an effective manstopper unless it's in a caliber like .45 acp. Even 7.62 NATO can overpenetrate and not stop an enemy soldier."

I DARE YOU TO TELL THAT TO MY FATHER-IN-LAW! He used an M2 from 1951-1953 in Korea. I can PROMISE you he would call this a big load of Bovine Scat!

 

[wcwhitey]

I hear quite a bit about the Service Grade M1 Carbines from CMP lately. So I went to the CMP Store at Camp Perry last week and looked for myself. Nothing at all against the CMP I believe they are doing Gods work but I walked away empty handed. Best way to say it is that pickin's are getting slim. The Field Grade Garands were not much better. I truly admire their history but I have to say that some of these rifles are on their last legs.

That being said I have owned two of both the Carbine and the Mini. If I was a first time buyer I would go with the Mini any day. Accuracy is basically even but the Mini wins out in the power department. Magazines although $40 buck a rap are new and reliable if you buy Ruger. Carbine mags are getting expensive and it is not easy to find good GI ones still in the wrap for less than $25 bucks. 5.56 is hard to get right now and expensive but still easier than .30 Carbine. Both my Mini's shot Wolf and Barnaul without a problem.

And it also goes back to condition. A used M1 has been used and used and used. The Mini is a new gun or no where near as used as a carbine.

BTW, Jimmyray, give that father in law a big hug for me. Bill

 

[amd6547]

GI Mags are $12 apiece at CMP...recently, they sold 10/$100.
There are currently Korean import mags in both 15rd and 30rd form at cheap prices. These are high quality and work great.
Selection at the CMP store varries from week to week. They are about to release carbines which were used by the bavarian police. These promise to be in very good shape.

 

[FMJMIKE]

I fired a FMJ M1 Carbine round into a 14 inch diameter pine stump in my backyard. To my surprise it went through the stump with no trouble at all. Sorry.....I do not believe the frozen clothes of Chinese soldiers would stop the M1 carbine rounds.

 

[amd6547]

Read this book...It is a great read about some real American heroes, and one of the most definitive accounts of the problems encountered by carbine users in Korea.

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Stand-Fox-Company-Marines/dp/0871139936

Function problems occurred with every weapon...carbine, garand, Browning machine guns,etc.

 

[MP-44]

Not to beat a dead horse but I would like to see a test where a .30 carbine round is stopped by frozen cloths ( the kind that would have been worn in Korea ) that still allow the person to maneuver and make a charge in combat. All the test I have read about show the opposite. My uncles Carbine consistently shot through both sides of old cars with mil-sup ball ammo.

And I still stick with the fact that if the .30 round was operating the M1 Carbine it had to be shooting at or very near spec.

 

[WardenWolf]

The horse is dead. Fact is, frozen clothes offer about as much resistance as sheet metal: effectively none as far as a bullet is concerned. Frozen actually makes them LESS effective against bullets as it creates a "punch through" effect instead of "drill through" (brittle sudden failure versus compression and stretching), in much the same way that your typical hollow core metal door is less effective at stopping a bullet than a solid wood door. Brittle materials tend to fail much more readily and far more spectacularly than flexible ones.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Under the conditions of Korea any firearm would suffer without constant maintainance. I have seen my f-i-l's photo album and it is gruesome. If your idea of the terrain in Korea during those days comes from old *Mash* reruns you are WAY off the mark! MUD,MUD and MORE MUD. Sleeping quarters were a ditch with planks and tin over it(at times). Soldiers were issued one cantene of water per day. It was TOUGH but my f-i-l kept HIS weapon clean because "his life as well as his buddy's lives depended on it". Sadly,a stroke and several t.i.a.s have left him paralized on his left side and wheelchair bound but he still remembers well and will defend his beloved M2 vehemently. Personally I think he would like the Ruger also.