Mini-14 vs .30 carbine?

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Christmas Eve of 1954, I stood guard duty at Inchon. 17 below zero, 20 mph wind, knee-deep snow.

Not much mud. :D

There's a reason I like living in a desert with no winter to speak of...
 
Art,thank you for your service. You and my F-I-L would probably not run out of things to talk about. BTW, did you have a nickname while in the service? My F-I-L was known as "Stitch" and his Captain(?) was known as "Stash".
 
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The Japanese also complained about their 6.5mm Arisaka rounds being stopped by heavy Chinese clothing and supposedly it was one of the reasons for them switching to the more powerful 7.7mm round.

Myself however, I don't believe either bullet was stopped by clothing, but especially not the 6.5mm which was a real rifle cartridge being fired from a long barrel. You shoot somebody from a distance and he doesn't go down. Maybe you missed him or maybe he's just a tough son of a bitch who's going to keep fighting even with a couple of holes in him. Who knows? Since he's 50 or more yards away from you, you certainly don't. Now later on you happen to find a dead body or a prisoner with a bullet stuck in their clothing. The thing is, that bullet could have come from anywhere. It could have been fired up in the air and penetrated a layer or two when it came back down or it could have ricocheted off the ground or it could have even been a souvenir that the soldier tucked away. All these things happen during war, but I've never seen any kind of ballistics test indicating that clothing will stop bullets when struck head on.
 
The Japanese also complained about their 6.5mm Arisaka rounds being stopped by heavy Chinese clothing and supposedly it was one of the reasons for them switching to the more powerful 7.7mm round.

Here's some example loadings, to compare:

.30 Carbine: 110 grain, 2000 feet per second.
6.5 Arisaka: 139 grain, 2500 feet per second.
5.56 NATO: 62 grain, 3100 feet per second.
7.7 Arisaka: 174 grain, 2400 feet per second.
.303 British: 174 grain, 2500 feet per second.
.308: 175 grain, 2600 feet per second.
30-06 (M1 Ball): 174 grain, 2640 feet per second.

The 6.5mm cartridge is far more powerful than modern 5.56 NATO. It should be effective out to 750 yards or so. The 7.7 cartridge was a spot-on match for the .303 British. It used the same bullet diameter in a new rimless case.

Fact is, clothing is not going to be effective against modern rifle ammunition, frozen or not. The characteristics of 5.56 NATO are far better known, and it's known to defeat Level II body armor with ease. The 6.5mm Arisaka around should be even more effective, being only slightly larger but more than double the weight. Unless you really think those clothes they were wearing were more effective than modern body armor, there's absolutely NO chance they had anything to do with their wearer surviving a rifle hit. Note that the M1 Carbine would also likely defeat Level II armor, because that armor is only rated up to .357 and the M1 Carbine is small caliber / high velocity in comparison, which makes it more effective against body armor.
 
Christmas Eve of 1954, I stood guard duty at Inchon. 17 below zero, 20 mph wind, knee-deep snow.

I think anything below 60 is cold. I couldn't even imagine standing around in those conditions even with todays boots and clothing Much less in 40s clothing tech.
 
The M1 carbine and Mini 14 are actually kinda like cousins. The Mini 14, is essentially a smaller M14, and the M14 is essentially a Garand with detachable mags. And although the Carbine and Garand were designed by two very different people, You can see the carbine takes quite a few of its design features from the garand having both been designed within a decade of eachother. I'm not saying its a copy, its not. But I dont know how someone can look at the carbine and not think it's a miniature M1 with detachable mags and slightly differen't piston system.

With that said, I think they would both hold up just the same. They are almost identicle rifles less the cartridges used. Which leaves the question, which would I prefer if I could only have one? The Mini, but only because I like the 5.56 better than the .30 carbine.
 
One of the few times my father spoke of any aspect of his war service was to bad mouth the M1 carbine, and to mention how many guys it got killed. According to his brief rant, the Marines he served with would pick up the first Garand they came to, and pay the fine for losing the carbine. My aunt tells me he made landings at Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Guadalcanal, so I figure he had some hands on experience. I sure knew as a little kid not to say those were cool rifles though.
 
The only reason it would have gotten someone killed is if they tried to use it like a Garand. It is NOT a long-ranged rifle. It is NOT a brush gun. It is NOT something that turns light cover into concealment (ala 30-06). If your enemy has a battle rifle and you're a combat engineer with a little Carbine, the correct response is to TAKE COVER. It's the GI's job to take these guys out. Not the specialists.
 
I don't have the history Ed has. I joined the Corps in 1966. I had one Gunny who thought the M14 was a pussy rifle, because it was in that pussy 7.62 NATO round and not a "man's" cartridge, 30-06.

My Senior DI had his 13yo son come embarrass us on the rifle range on Parris Island with the M14 we qualified with. The Senior had served at the Chosen. My point is I served with a bunch of senior officers and NCO's who had served in the South Pacific and Korea, and a bunch more who had only served in Korea. All, would swear by the Garand, and some would swear at the carbine. Some liked the carbine.

I suspect a lot of the problem in Korea with the Carbine and the frozen clothing was deflection. Round bullets hitting any hard service even flat water, even if it is easily penetrated straight in, will ricochet or deflect. Happens often when you hit some one in the head with blunt particularly round nosed bullets. Not to be ignored.

I fought in Vietnam. Saw no problem with the carbine in that environment. Carried a M2 for a while for messenger runs. (I could not take my M14 to my Administrative rear areas, otherwise they would have forced me to swap for a Black POS, I did everything within my power, and few other things, to prevent that from happening. I considered that a survivor skill, hanging on to a rifle that worked EVERY time I pulled the trigger.) I took a few shots with it, but never got in a real serious firefight with the carbine.

Many folks believe if Ruger had brought the Mini 14 out early enough, the US military would be carrying them today, instead of what we got saddled with. I still prefer more caliber, but then everyone does. But then the Caliber is the only really weak part of the set up. Unlike the present AR system with it's weak bolt and extractor that is exacerbated by the heat that defecating in it's own action causes.(Heat: Particularly when using full Auto capability, a problem that virtually no civilian is going to have to deal with.))

I like the M1 Carbine. I liked the Ruger Mini 14 I had until about 1998. For home defense I would take and prefer the M1 with the new Corbon DPX all copper Barnes Hollow points. For problems afield, I think the Ruger would be more appropriate. I think both have their niche, and over lap more than a little. I would not feel under armed with either, as a civilian.

Go figure.

Fred

The comments of Dr Gary Roberts unabashedly copied from M4Carbine.net. About the M1 carbine and the 30cal carbine cartridge.

Just the fact's "ma'am".

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956 Go there and look at the pretty pictures too.

M1 Carbines

The .30 caliber M1 Carbine 110 gr FMJ military bullets have a typical velocity of 1970 f/s. As these are non-deforming, non-fragmenting projectiles, they produces minimal tissue damage, somewhat similar to the U. S. 9 mm NATO M882 124 gr FMJ. While M1 carbines have a poor reputation when using GI ball ammo, good expanding bullets offer a stunning leap in incapacitation potential and should cause us to rethink the M1 carbine as a self defense rifle and even as a LE patrol rifle for agencies that won’t allow AR15’s for whatever asinine reasons. The M1 Carbine is a very viable choice as a personal defense weapon for use out to 100 yards or so; in many ways, the M1 Carbine was the M4 of it's era (1940's to early 1960's) and can still be effective today when fed the right ammunition.

With expanding projectiles, the .30 caliber M1 Carbine creates a temporary cavity stretch that is slightly larger than that produced by heavy expanding .357 Magnum hunting loads and may be able to produce permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture injuries in tissues susceptible to stretch insults, such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder. The best ammunition choices for the M1 Carbine are the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR) and the Corbon 110 gr JHP DPX loading using the all copper Barnes X bullet. The Remington load has an average velocity of 1864 f/s, expands to around .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor. This is comparable intermediate barrier performance to many good .223 loads. Likewise, the Corbon DPX load penetrates 18.9" and expands to 0.56" in bare gelatin. The Winchester 110 gr JSP also works reasonably well, but has a bit smaller permanent wound channel compared to the Remington or Corbon DPX load. In addition, the new Speer 110 gr Gold Dot carbine load appears very promising based on the factory test data released at SHOT 2009:


Fulton Armory does an outstanding job on M1 Carbine re-builds and is highly recommended. To maximize the reliability of the M1 carbine, only use USGI weapons, as most commercial M1 Carbine clones have not proven as reliable as GI. It is a good idea to use an M2 mag catch, run a flip safety instead of the push button, and have a second head-spaced bolt ready for use, as this is a weak area. Sights are typical military iron variety, although one can mount an optical sight with some difficulty. Accuracy is typically in the 3-4 MOA range, not great, but at least as good as the AK's. Typical reliability is around one easily cleared feeding failure per 500 or so rounds--no big deal. The M1 carbine stock has nearly perfect LOP as is, even with body armor on--I feel no need to try and add a collapsible stock to these weapons.

In general, avoid commercial magazines; GI 15 round mags typically are the most reliable, although some GI 30 rounders work ok...Wolff makes new mag springs that can help. The Black Hawk 2oz Duty Mace pouch (52DMP2BK) makes a very nice belt mag pouch for a M1 carbine 15 round magazine. 15 rd M1 carbine mags fit adequately into Paraclete triple flash bang pouches (BPP0707); the Paraclete flash light pouch (FLH0077) works OK to hold a single 30 round mag.

A simple way to attach accessories to get a small section of Pic Rail--we’ve used the long PRI ones installed on Mk12 Mod 0 SPR’s and then cut the rails to desired size with a hack saw (you can get 4 pieces out of the long PRI rail), smooth and polish the cuts with a file, Dremel Tool, and sand paper, then drill some holes in the rail piece and counter sink, spray the rail with flat black paint and let dry. Next drill some holes completely through your standard GI stock, use T-nuts and stainless steel bolts purchased at your local hardware store to fix the prepared Pic rail section to the stock. Attach the light of your choice--both the SF X300 and SF G2 work well.

Recently, the following modifications have improved the utility of M1 carbines for real world use:

-- Ultimak fore-ends
-- Aimpoint M3’s in Leup 30 mm med matte QRW rings or even better, T1’s in LaRue mounts.
-- SF 6v G2's in VTAC mounts
-- Blue Force Gear VCAS slings

In general, the AR15 is a better choice for a patrol rifle or self-defense, as it is more accurate, more ergonomic, still in current production, and there are more accessories available, however, if you live in an overly restrictive state, modified M1 Carbines with good ammo make useful PC alternatives to M4's and AK's.

Think of the M1 carbine as a 100 yard PDW; they are light, handy, and fun to shoot--sort of like an MP5.
 
Not to beat a dead horse but I would like to see a test where a .30 carbine round is stopped by frozen cloths ( the kind that would have been worn in Korea )...

As you wish.;)

telogreika1.jpg

Send me $100 plus shipping, and the above telogreika (as worn by NK and Chinese troops) is yours. No guarantee or warrantee, either expressed or implied, as to the bulletproofness of this product. Please include the name of your next of kin, so that I may confirm that the product was received and tested, and it's suitability (or lack thereof) as body armor.

Don
 
I suspect there's more to the 30 carbine vs bundled up chinese than just the amount of clothing. Such as just how temp sensitive was the propellants used? If loaded with something similar to ww296/h110 I wouldn't be surprised if the MV was down by at least 300fps in temps of 20 below
 
All I can say is with my AO M1 Carbine I DO make consistant head shots at 100 yards, shooting prone, with the carbine and issue sights.

Now with maybe the new Mini-14s it might do that. But the older ones? I doubt it.

Now I have owned several Mini-14s. They were all ok except accuracy never was great. Some were good once you tweeked the gun and shortened the barrel, but otherwise they didn't give all that great a preformance.

And, of course, just break your Mini-14s firing pin and see how much trouble it is to get one. I have GI stock firing pins, extractors, ejectors, and all the springs.

And M1 carbine mags are still alot cheeper than Mini-14 mags.

The only place where the Mini-14 shines is in power. It is a better round. Weither you think you need all that more power is up to you. Personaly, if you want the 5.56 round, I'd get an AR.
 
Chieftain, did you know a Master-sargent,named Charlie Jones while you were at the island?

Sorry, jimmyray.

I was a turd the time I was on Parris Island. I wasn't into the "proper" social circles.

I was a "Hat" myself, in Hollywood in the early 70's though, if that is any concellation. Did not last long though.

But no, Sir. I did not know or meet a Master-Sargent named Charlie Jones that I know of.

Good luck

Fred
 
There is nothing like a good short, but legal, barrell carbine with a red dot... Honestly, the thing is so light and handy, it's like hefting a toy.



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Mini is durable

Mini-14 Police rifles have been returned to the factory for refurb with millions of rounds have been shot through them, and they still functioned properly.
 
Sunray said:
"...comparison between the Carbine, M14, and Mini-14..." An M14 isn't comparable. It was a full sized battle rifle that was selected for the U.S. military for political reasons. Mind you, so was the M16.

Operating mechanism comparison. The article I linked talked about a few structural and design differences between the Mini-14 and the M14 and M1 Carbine, but it would be fun to do a very in-depth parts comparison.
 
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