Minimum 1000 lbs of kinetic energy for deer

[nathan]

and its subspecies has been the standard by most gun writers and gun nerds to make the kill . But what about for big games like elk, moose , bison and bears ? Would it suffice to say, 2000 lbs , would be the minimum ?

 

[rcmodel]

I think Muzzle Energy is a false measurement of killing power.

It really has very little relevance in the real world.

More Bison were killed with black powder & 45-70's then you could shake a stick at.
And they only put out about 1,000 ft/lb at 200 yards. However, they would shoot through both sides of a big bull way past that range.

By the same token, many folks think nothing of going after deer, black bear & probably elk with a .44 Magnum handgun. And they kill them quite dead every year.
You are looking at only 600 ft/lb at 50 yards there.

The key to killing power is deep penetration with decent bullet expansion.
If you can put a bullet clear through the animals boiler room, it is going to die, period.

rc

 

[azar]

I think Muzzle Energy is a false measurement of killing power...
The key to killing power is deep penetration with decent bullet expansion.
If you can put a bullet clear through the animals boiler room, it is going to die, period.

You could pretty much end the thread right there.

 

[chas08]

You could pretty much end the thread right there.

Yup.. don't get hung up on the numbers. That's all they are, numbers. RC said it as good as it could be said.

 

[HarcyPervin]

you mean to tell me that a deer's heart won't reject a bullet if it doesn't have high numbers attached to it???? excuse me while i scrape my brain off the wall because that blew my mind!

 

[MEHavey]

So if you don't like that metric (1,000 ft-lbs/muzzle), what descriptor would you use?

Think carefully about both actual intent, and how "normal people" (& F&G) will be required to interpret.

 

[d2wing]

Oh, I missed it, the world went flat again.

 

[Johnny_Come_Lately]

Here we go again ----

Arrow with broadhead: ~ 385 grains
Arrow speed: ~ 280 fps
Kinetic Energy when above pierced heart: ~ 55ft/lbs

How the hell did the taxidermist mount that live deer hanging above my fireplace???



:banghead:



Shot and/or arrow placement means more that kinetic energy ever will.

 

[CoastieShep]

How the hell did the taxidermist mount that live deer hanging above my fireplace???

Carefully?

 

[Johnny_Come_Lately]

 

[gspn]

How the hell did the taxidermist mount that live deer hanging above my fireplace???

In all fairness...it takes a whole lot less energy to drive a broadhead through a deer than it does a bullet. You could push that arrow into a deer with one hand thanks to the razor sharp nature of the tip and small cross section.

Try pushing a 45-70 bullet into the side of a deer carcass by hand. The bigger the cross section the more force is needed to get the projectile in there.

I agree with you on shot placement.

To the OP...rather than try to quantify some minimum acceptable energy level it might be worth using anecdotal evidence to get where you're trying to go.

You could go to great lengths to set up a scientific study to determine just how much energy it takes to push a 30 caliber bullet through a deer...you could run thousands of tests and collect all the data and ultimately you'd come to a figure that would tell you that on average "X number" of foot pounds of energy is what it takes to deliver a 30 caliber bullet into the vitals of a deer at various distances.

Or you could just talk to a lot of hunters and read a bunch and come to a dang good conclusion on what it will take to reliably kill the critter you're after.

It will be easy to find a range of weapons and loads that will get the job done...the next trick is practicing so that you can deliver the bullet to the right spot at the right time...under pressure.

If you really want to get techical you could go buy a boston butt (with the bone in) and set it downrange...shoot it and see how your bullet performs in terms of penetration. It would take maybe $7 to do that test.

 

[d2wing]

I'd be interested in seeing how the Indians killed bears and buffalo with stone arrows and spears, from a safe distance of course. We just had a discussion on energy, should we go to how sharp? I personally would much rather shoot a bear with a .44 mag than a .44 special. Reminds me of when Bill Hickock tried to shoot a grizzly with a .36 Navy revolver. That didn't go well. Let me know if I stumble back on topic.

 

[gspn]

I'd be interested in seeing how the Indians killed bears and buffalo with stone arrows and spears, from a safe distance of course

Many times they used a buffalo jump. It was far easier to herd them over a cliff and spear the crippled animals at the bottom than to launch sharp rock arrow heads from horse back.

Man...I wonder what the kinetic energy is on that one? A 600 lb buffalo falling off a 100 foot cliff...serious terminal energy.

 

[nathan]

THanks guys, at least im not gonna be concern if i use .243 100 gr bonded bullet to kill an elk or moose on a lung shot. Of course, accuracy is key to everything.

 

[Johnny_Come_Lately]

In all fairness...it takes a whole lot less energy to drive a broadhead through a deer than it does a bullet. You could push that arrow into a deer with one hand thanks to the razor sharp nature of the tip and small cross section.

I agree. That is why I made such a ridiculous comparison. Death results from the failure of a vital organ to perform its task. Last time I checked sufficient shock, and not necessarily of the electrical type, can cause heart failure leading to death. However, as a practical matter, hunters don’t normally head into the field looking to cause an animal to have a heart attack.

Instead of practicing trigger manipulation until proficient, going to a range to practice shot placement until proficient and scouting hunting locale until able to a pick setup location regardless of wind direction with sufficient shooting lanes so we can effect a precise shot, some “hunters” substitute an eight pound mall for a 22oz ball peen hammer.

Before I get flamed, let me set the record straight. I’m not to saying that everyone who shoots anything more powerful than a .22LR is ill prepared. I carry a Glock 27 when off duty. Not for any other reason but, that I like it and I am superbly proficient with it. But, some people would argue that a .40 is overkill.

My 2 ¢

 

[McCall911]

I agree with the others that the 1000 ft-lb of energy rule is so much horse puckey. Experience has shown that quite a few handgun rounds of substantially less than 1000 ft-lbs are not only legal for use on deer but also highly effective and suitable.

 

[Art Eatman]

Face it: Game laws are written for the guys who only do some sight-in and then go for some particular critter. And the fact that there are a lot of city guys going hunting also is factored in. IOW, the proverbial LCD: Lowest Common Denominator.

So, the 1,000 ft-lb deal is easy and simple, quick and dirty. "Close enough for the average hunter."

Enough. This subject is already three pages' worth in that other thread about energy.