Minimum black bear defense round

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Buffalo Bore's heavy loads or any of the 180gr solid loads from Federal and/or Winchester (does Remington have one?). I think Corbon has some heavy 357mag loads too. Go 180gr or heavier. I've shot the Federal Castcore 180s, but none of the others.

If you handload, you can created these loads much cheaper than you can buy them. My "woods carry" load for my GP100 is a Hornady 180 XTP over enough H110 to push it to 1200+ from a 4" barrel.

Chris
 
Unfortunatly, as far as I can tell, CO is not an open carry state.
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No, that's not true at all unless something has changed recently ...?

AFAIK, open carry is legal in Colorado, as well as having a gun in your vehicle without a permit.

If I was hiking down there again (only why would I go to CO from MT to hike?) I would either carry my 357 mag SecSix or my 45 LC Vaquero, depending on my mood that day.
 
Federal sells a 180 grain load for the 357. it is a cast core design. Meaning that it is meant to drive in for hits on vitals on bigger animals.

If you have a little one with you. one other item to think about is proper disposal of the pampers. I have not seen bears go after these, but damn near every other animal in the food chain does. From mice to dogs to raccoons, so I would figure something with the nose of a bear would do the same. Also make sure the wife helps with planning the trip, have her get out her little calender and make sure it is a "safe" week to go out in the woods. A very good friend was slapped around by black bear in the boundary waters a few years ago, It was not a good week for her to go in the woods, but she thought she would be in a canoe most of the time so it would be so bad, on the third or forth portage she got tackled from behind.
What saved her was the bear attacked the back pack not her and her SO at the time threw the Alumicraft canoe at the bear and the bear freaked at the sight of a 17 foot silver thing flying through the air.

Follow all the rules about camp clean up and food storage and latrine placement, cook down wind from camp so food odors do not come back into camp. you might want to set up a trip wire around your camp. mason's twine with a few little bells is simple and easy to do. just something to give pause to a night time visitor and give you an added few seconds.

For most purposes, pepper foam and one of those compressed air boat horns have worked for us. The foam stuff has more mass so that if you are forced to spray up wind, it does not float back on you as much. We have had two bears bother us on canoe trips, both times blowing the air horn and spraying the pepper foam got them to skedadle. one was on a portage the other was while at a camp sight. The portage bear took off at the first blast of the airhorn, them walked back with his nose high sniffing the wind, A shot of pepper foam sent him running. The second bear a sow, walked up the trail to our campsight while we were cooking. That bear had me thinking I might need to shoot but a ten foot blast of pepper spray and then some airhorn finally got it to move, I ended up not sleeping all night as I was really not sure she was fully gone, but she never came back.

I however would prefer to carry a bigger gun than a 357, but if it was all I had I would be ok with it. Consider 180 gr@1200 FPS the minimum. I now carry a blackhawk in 45 shooting 280 grain hard cast at about 1150. and in the canoe we usually have a winchester Trapper too, in 45 LC. the same loads run about 1500 out of the longer barrel.

I emphasize the part about the pampers and your wifes schedule.
I think I would try to find grampa and gramma time for the young one unless you have no choice, Kid soils him/herself and you do not change him right away, you might be asking for trouble on the one thing your really have no desire to loose. Especially if the kid is on your wifes back.

Lastly, as far as open carry, This has never really been a problem anywhere I have been camping where there has been anychance of a critter encounter. I may be wrong, but i think you would be hard pressed to find anyone a ranger has bothered who was behaving and packing especially if they had a kid with. I never put my gun on till we have gone at least one lake in to the BWCA, but after that we carry and having met rangers, despite the official frowning on guns that the BWCA likes to put up, the rangers have never said anything about the guns.
Just me and my .02 cents.
 
Some good points about follow up shots with a .357mag v. .44mag (and w/ bear you will need follow up shots if you are unlucky enough to be attacked). I still would be extremely uncomfortable with any auto caliber or non-mag revolver, but something is better than nothing (yes, a black bear is about the weight of a very large man, but they are more resilient, and their skull is reputed to be quite tough and actually resists, due to both thickness and angle, many calibers). If you are going soon and don't have a magnum strength revolver, a larger medium framed .357 (like a S&W L-frame, a Taurus Tracker, or a Ruger GP100) will be quite easy to learn to handle the recoil and the gun will take pretty much any .357mag ammo on the market without trouble. I would go with a 6" barrel on a .357- more barrel means more velocity so you get more out of the magnum (they were originally designed with 8" or 8 1/2" barrels in mind), but they will be lighter, handier and easier to draw than a large 8".

Still, I'd consider a .41 mag as well. About halfway between .357mag and .44mag on both power and recoil. In a full-sized gun it shouldn't be too hard to handle and it may give you a needed edge v. the .357.

Also, there is good advice on the bear strength pepper spray. Against a bear attack, no caliber handgun is really sufficient. However, the pepper spray (be sure it is for bear encounters) has a reputation of being very effective- it temporarily blinds them, and it interferes with their sense of smell. In addition to the pain which may send them running, it disorients them making it easier to get away.

As for ammo, go with the heavier bullets for the caliber (180gr for .357mag, and no less than 240 for .41 or .44mag) and something more solid (no HP). JSP or hard-cast lead is best as you want maximum penatration.
 
So how would a 200-220gr 10mm bullet not do what a 180gr .357 bullet will do?
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It isn't just weight and even velocity. It is also the construction and materials of the bullet. Do they make heavy hard-cast or JSP hunting rounds in 10mm? Are they round nose (not as good) or are they either flat nose or SWC (much better)? Since the revolver rounds are more task specific (i.e. they were designed for this, or near this, kind of application) while the auto rounds generally were not I would be far more comfortable with a magnum revolver than a 10mm (and the only auto I'd consider is the 10mm).

Edit-
OK, looking at your link I see one is FMJ (round nose), that I wouldn't want. But the other is cast FP. So maybe there are one or two specialty 10mm loads that would work. How easily available is it? Can you walk into any sporting goods store to stock up like you can with any of the magnum calibers? If not, I'd say 10mm might work with this (or a simlar) load if you already have one, but I wouldn't encourage someone to go out and buy a 10mm for this somewhat specialized application when loadings made for this kind of application in other calibers are far more varied and plentiful.
 
Hmmmm

Short of taking someone along, SLOWER, than you and the Mrs.(Just teasing of course:) Id opt for something diff. than the .40 if poss., If a must Id go 180grain hardball (Something with a Wide metplat factor or face) Check Garret Bullets...depending on your gun choice if in the larger bores.! Otherwise a larger caliber if a new gun is in the budget. all above large bore wheelguns and the 10mm will do fine. Perhaps a 625 w/ a short barrel in .45ACP that will see some good carry time when the Vaca is over? just a thought. Enjoy your trip and stay safe sir.
Loandr.
 
I've encountered black bears over a dozen times while hiking in the SE US and have never had a problem with them. I attribute this to following the basic rules a buddy of mine that was a black bear researcher told me. It is of critical importance that you understand what motivates a bear to be interested in you or to attack. Please spend the time to research this. Don't smell like food, don't smell like perfume, don't leave food out, don't look or sound "interesting", don't think they're cute and cuddley. Seal all food in double zip locks. Don't snack unless you can wash off. Don't get food on/in your clothing. Don't use perfumed wet-wipes. Don't use perfumed soaps, deodeants, or perfumes. Seal all trash in double zip locks. Don't make "bear noises" or crying sounds or any sounds that could "interest" a bear. Don't follow them or cubs or get down on all fours and mimick them. If you do encounter a black bear don't turn your back. Stand still and let them pass or back away without turing your back. Spring is especially dangerous for cubs. Don't do anything that makes a black bear sow evern think that you know her cubs around. Taking a baby into bear country may not be a good idea since baby's often smell like food and perfume and can sound "interesting" to a predator like a bear. Black bears will usually pass you by and if one bluff charges you try to make yourself as big and loud as possible to bluff back. Have Bear Guard or another bear spray on hand and don't hesitate to use it and keep a the gun ready. If a black bear does seem to be paralleling you and doesn't go away they are probably a rogue and they are probably stalking you. If you are stalked by a black bear be aware that you are in huge trouble and don't even think about bluffing or spraying, go straight to the gun. If attacked don't stop fighting. Black bears must be fought off because they may view you as food. http://wildlife.state.co.us/Education/LivingWithWildlife/BearCountry.asp

As to the gun, why a handgun when you can buy a lever carbine shooting .44 mag? I would think that if you could carry a handgun legally then you could carry a rifle legally and should. The spouse could carry a handgun as backup.http://www.foggymountain.com/handgunning-bear-hunt2.shtml

BTW - whoever told you CO does not have griz were wrong. http://wildlife.state.co.us/Education/mammalsguide/grizzly_bears.asp
 
As I have mentioned on other Threads, a Hunting Guide told me his handgun caliber of choice for protection against Black Bear is a 357.

His reasoning was you need to shoot the Bear as quickly as possible with as many rounds as you can put in the Bear. Larger calibers slow down your follow up shots. On Griz it would be a different story. Best would be a rifle/carbine or slug gun.

Unless your wife uses the 38 for CCW, I suggest trading it for a 357. She can always load 38gr back in the city.

I would go with S&W model 19 or 66.

Be sure to practice with it before you leave. :rolleyes:
 
curious whats the average size of your southwestern bears? height? weight? and how much contact do they have with humans?
 
Lot more bears in Colorado now since they did away with the spring/summer bear hunt. :fire:

I only saw a couple the whole time I lived there (20+ yrs) even though I lived and worked in the woods much of that time. But about a year ago, there were several roaming around in my Mom's neighborhood on the NE side of Colo Spgs :uhoh:
 
We have quite a few black bears in the Ozarks -- there are some roaming the valley where I live all the time, and I've had a few encounters with them. In general, a black bear is more afraid of you than you are of him.

The idea that blacks will attack if you get between them and their cubs has pretty much been shown to be a myth. But you CAN get in trouble over food. Hang all food high, from a flexible branch, well out from the trunk of the tree so the bear can't climb up and snag it. Don't leave food or scraps or grease, etc around your campsite.
 
Thanks to all for the replys so far. The camping issue is moot as we'll be staying with a friend of our's at her mom and stepdad's place. Any hikes are likely to be day hikes, nothing overnight. So, any food carried would be minimal, and I do know about scent control.

Slug guns and carbines may well be the best in terms of power but they are a bit more difficult to carry and not as quick in handeling.

The place we'll be staying at, though posh in some senses, has only an outhouse for toilet facilities (tax reasons apparently drove this :scrutiny: ) and our friend has reported seeing bears between the house and the outhouse. Her step-dad is a gun nut so there is most likely a carbine or shot-gun available around the house, but I was looking for advise on what to carry while day hiking and going to the crapper after dark.

I'm going to look for a good .357 or .41 mag at the gun show. Being into less popular calibers, I'll probably give the not to a .41mag "just because" it's a little different.

Anybody got more specific info on whether open-carry is allowed in CO outside of hunting seasons? Reading packing.org it seemed like that was not allowed. If it is allowed I may just cancel my reservation at the CCW class this weekend and put that money ($175 total for class and state permit fees) towards buying a new gun and holster.

I don't want to trade in my wife's .38 as it's a very lightweight revolver (aluminum frame) so she's more likely to actually carry that than a heavier .357mag of otherwise equal dimensions. Besides, it's her gun so I have no say in the matter.

Our friend (who has 4 kids of her own) loves babysitting our daughter so we may have difficulty taking her on our hikes anyway. But if we do, trust me, the diapers will be contained WRT odor, bears or no bears.
 
I used to race off-road motorcycles and we often saw people riding without helmets in the desert. We used to say "it's not worth spending the money on a helmet if you don't have anything valuable enough to put in it".

If you don't value you life enough to invest in the right equipment, why bother at all. Adhering to the minimum standard of protection in all things will not likely lead to a long life.

Me? I like me, I'm valuable, grew up around bears and have been in more staredowns than I can count but I'm not brave. I carry a .454.
 
While a .454 is certainly going to be more effective than a .357 or even a .44mag, it's also a very hard gun to control unless it's too big and heavy for most people to bother with carrying.

Risk is a continuum. Racing motorcycles without a helmet is well along the scale towards "stupid" because it's not a matter of if, but when you'll crash. Hiking in bear country is something that some spend a lifetime doing and they never encounter a bear at anything less than many hundreds of yards distance. Some go once and get mauled. So choice of protection methods is governed by where on that risk continuum you are willing to live.

While I won't knowingly venture into bear country unarmed, I'm also pragmatic enough to know that my chances of a bear encounter are slim enough that considerations like comfort and ease of carry along with practical accuracy while making multiple shots is just as important as having a gun that will effectively turn a bear attack. Therefore, for me, a .454 is off the table. But, so is my wife's .38 snubby. They are at opposite extremes, both of which I find unsuitable for myself.

I'm inclined to anything between .357 and .44 mag as a number of people have indicated that a .357 is rather popular for bear defense, and I think a .44 mag will be on the upper limit of what I can reasonably become proficient with before July. I'm willing to take the risk that such a gun may not be effective in turning an attack (when a .454, or lever action carbine, or slug gun would) becuase a .357-44mag is still much more likely to turn an attack than hurling a rock or two. Which is about all I'd have left to use if I believed that anything less than a .454 (or lever action carbine, or slug gun) would be pointless to take. If it's too big, heavy, and hard to control it won't wind up being taken at all.
 
Well, I looked more closely at packing.org's website and noticed this:
Open Carry - You can open carry legally unless posted otherwise. However, persons have been and continue to be prosecuted for "disorderly conduct" if the "victim" was "alarmed" at seeing the firearm.
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So, although legal I don't want to take the chance on some ninny getting their knickers in a damp twist and landing me in the pokey for something I do in total confidence here in AZ.
 
I'd go with a 12 gauge pump, 18 or 20" rifle sighted barrel, loaded to the gills with 3 inch 1-1/4 ounce fosters.....mag extention tube and a not cheap weapon light. If you are shooting at a bear its gonna be in shotgun range... leave big holes and plenty of them, never get boxed into a corner.
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I concur. 12 guage shotgun is the great equilizer when it comes to bear! :p
 
I would use a .357 Mag minimum. 10mm is a good round but a little harder to find a good gun with the caliber. The Witness is absolutely worthless, do NOT buy it, be better off throwing it at the bear. Glock has 10mm, if you like Glocks, otherwise go with the Dan Wesson 10mm. However, there are many choices in .357 mag that won't break your wallet and still be able to get something nice.
 
I would suggest teh 45 long colt in a sa revolver as a good bear gun. It is probably more than enough for blacks but who doesn't want a little extra.
 
Sumpnz;

I've lived in Wyoming & Montana most of my life. I'm frequently off the pavement. When out, I just take my normal carry gun, a .40 S&W, with a back-up 12 guage. Montana has large populations of bears, both black & griz, I've met both types & not had to shoot yet.

Given that you are going to be day hiking only, but staying in a cabin that's obviously in bear country, I'd go with the one of each philosophy. Day hiking, & therefore not packing a tent, bags, etc, frees up weight & room for the Rem 870 home defense 12 with alternating OOO buck & slugs. Wife has the child & small gun of choice, you have the 12.

As a further incentive, a new 870 H-D is not going to run you anything like the money a new 10mm will. The same gun show should be able to come up with all the 'combat' accessories such as the sling swivel stocks & sling that will allow you to carry it comfortably & get it into action quickly.
With the extended magazine, there's no need to carry additional ammo either. Just use 2.75" slugs & buck, get more rounds, less recoil, & a faster second shot.

Having the 12 will give the both of you a lot of confidence. And that's very important. If you act like prey, the predators will treat you like prey. Act like another predator & you're not nearly as likely to be attacked. Keep in mind that anywhere that's got bear in Colorado almost certainly has cats too.

There have been confirmed cat attacks killing humans in the relatively recent past in Colorado. The Thompson canyon incident is the first that comes to mind.

900F
 
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