Minimum for Black Bear

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Sounds good, except you spelled Ruger wrong, it's R-U-G-E-R, not R-O-S-S-I.
:neener:

Do you know what animal is the greatest threat when hiking/camping/etc.?
Humans. You are much more likely to run into a dangerous person than have a bad encounter with a bear. I think a person that arms himself with a something that they would use as a winter carry gun is doing well. It may be less than ideal for stopping a bear attack, but is better suited for the more likely threat. If you KNOW that you are going to run into bears (fishing in AK comes to mind) you may need to rethink.

You running Ranger +P+ stuff in a BHP? How is that working? Back when I got all the Ranger 127 gain ammo I wanted for $8.25 a box, I gave some to a couple of friends with Hipowers. One brought back a a partial box and the other used it exclusively in his Glock after trying it in his HP. Both were concerned about the extra wear and tear.


David
 
I use my RA9TA in the BHP with a Wolff 18-lb recoil spring on board, and a slightly increased FP spring as well. Works fine. I believe this is what the illustrious Stephen A. Camp uses for his BHP load, as well.

I still prefer the Gold Dot 147-grainers, though, just because I'm loathe to mess up my nice BHP. I run the RA9TA in my Glocks and my Kahr all the time, though. :)
 
I've got a Ruger 44 magnum, but when I carry it, it is mainly for backup.

Guns in the .40 S&W class are fine for black bear, but you might need some fancy footwork between the time you place a shot well and the time the bullet hit takes effect. However, many people have significantly compromised shot placement with the larger guns, as well as significantly slower follow-up shot times. This, and keeping in mind that in most places being attacked by a human or a dog is more likely than a bear attack, and my leaning is toward a gun and load which performs very well on humans.

Michael Courtney
 
"...stick w/fmj's..." Absolutely not. No expansion, just a hole. JHP's if you really think you need a handgun. Yogi isn't interested in you. You reek of trouble to Yogi. Cindy will strenuously object to your getting anywhere near her cubs though. Walk with the wind, wear a jingle bell, stay away from local dumps and you won't need anything.
Two legged predators are more trouble than Yogi. If the space aliens come for you, nothing will help.

I recommended fmj b/c a member here described a black bear attack during which he attempted to stop the bear with a .357 blackhawk loaded with 158gr soft points. He killed the bear, but the first few shots had no effect at all. He finally killed the bear, and when he skinned it found the first few slugs flattened like pancakes just under the skin. As you know, sjsp bullets, while they do expand, do not expand as much as hp's.
So.....I say use fmj (or hard-cast lead) to insure adequete penetration. In other words, use fmj or hard-cast so that you won't die. :)
-David
 
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I agreed for the same reasons.

Ever do any big animal hunting? You want penetration, not expansion.

(And shot placement! :) Which is why I posted the bear shot-placement .pdf.)
 
The Ranger load was my carry load for a long time, and if I were to carry a 9mm it would be again. One of the very best.

As far as JHP vs. FMJ or hard lead goes, I don't think either is wrong. It just depends on how you rank the likely threats.

David
 
I shoot Ranger +P+ and Federal 124gr +P+ sparingly in my Hi Power, so minimum wear is likely, and I have never seen bulged cases etc - that should never happen.

I do have some Hirtenberger L7A1 NATO FMJ on hand, but that stuff, while being very well suited for ultimate 9mm penetration (indeed almost AP like) is too powerful for the HP and I won't shoot it.

I agree with the 2 legged predator comments, and I'm sure that the 127gr Ranger would leave a mark ;)

Thanks again for the comments guys.
 
I never really get this. Black bears range in size from:

"The black bear is about 1.5 m (5 feet) long. Females weigh between 40 and 180 kg (90 and 400 pounds), while males weigh between 50 and 400 kg (110 and 880 pounds)".

Most handguns people talk about carrying are designed with humans in mind, 14" penetration in gelatin, and expanding bullets. Black Bears aren't known for reading gun magazines. they aren't going to fall over getting shot with most handguns.
9, 40,45, all with hollowpoints, unless shot placement is percise, are only likely to really piss the bear off. Bears charge, really fast, and, you'll be lucky to get any gun into place, if they stalk you, and are intent on eating you. Your chances of hitting them in a vital spot is likely thin, as well. I suspect that bears have muscle that is both a bit thicker, and harder to get through, then ours, and, bones that make ours look like twigs. The best analogy I can think of is, take 600 pounds, and that's three, good size male adults.
Add one extra for the superior strength of the bear's anatomy. Put them chest to chest, and then tell me if you think 14" of penetration is enough, with those expanding hollowpoints in your 9, or 45.

I also keep thinking how strong you have to be to climb a tree, by digging your claws into it, and pulling your 600 pounds up into the tree...

Thank the bears for the few attacks on humans, something like 57 in the last hundred years. It sure isn't because we are smart enough to stay out of their way..
:neener: S

PS
There are people who actually have had to cull, or walk around black bears, and, folks that make ammunition for people that do this. One ammo maker has a friend that has shot a LOT of black bears. We got into a discussion about his hollowpoint game ammo. .45 LC, 260 grain bullet, at 1450fps. I asked him why he loaded it that hot. He said his friend
had used it, and lower velocity loads, and noticed a considerable difference in black bear reaction, when using the same bullet, and going from 1100-1200 fps , and 1450 fps.
I respected their actual observation of the results, and, I find that a nice black bear load, out of a .45 Seville.

For a pillow gun, while camping, that's what I'd have under my pillow, at least.
 
I knew a guy, (he's dead now), who killed a black bear that was tearing the insulation out of the bottom of his cabin.
His weapon of choice was a Harrington and Richardson Model 686 revolver loaded with CCI Mini Mag solids.
He shot once, caught the bear under the chin and the bullet got into the brain pan, end of bear.
I have always since considered this to be the absolute minimum caliber one should even attempt to use on a bear.

Would I choose this combo?
Heck no!
Things that claw and chew, then eat my remains, demand no less than a .44 Magnum in my book.
 
I am with those who believe that a .357 Magnum loaded with 200-gr. hard cast bullets (i.e. Cor Bon) is the absolute MINIMUM for any kind of bear, even the "black bear" that so many here are smirking at but which had no problem killing a 6 y.o. girl in Tennessee a few weeks ago after attacking her mother and brother.

If black bears really like to avoid humans, then -- fine, carry a .38 or .22 or 9mm with any load you like. Wear a bell and carry pepper spray. But when you are ATTACKED by a black bear -- and that is your fear -- you must carry a substantial cartridge in a minimum caliber. That, IMHO, is the .357 with hard cast bullets.
 
Personally wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than .41 mag with Federal's 250 gr Castcore load. And preferably a nice, plump, juicy-looking buddy who runs a lot slower than me! :D
 
To the original poster, toss-up between .40 and the .38 with +P ammo, thinking go with the .40 due to higher capacity.

But also seconding the idea of selling 1 or 2 and getting a stout .357.
 
Carry a bear pepper spray and an air horn - that should scare the bear away

What don't you like about the Berretta 9000? I have one and love it.

I'd swap you a Taurus .357 magnum for it.
 
I don't like the idea of any auto caliber for bear. They are thicker skinned than humans, have much denser muscle, much stronger bones, and are usually a lot bigger. Add to that they haven't been socialized to know that guns kill (no psychological stop), if you are attacked they see you as food or they are defending their young, they have much better endurance, and their adreneline is running high. You need more penetration than any auto caliber will give you.

I would go with a .357mag at minimum, and I prefer .41mag or .44mag for even black bear (while most are in the 200-300lbs range, they can get close to 1000). The advantages of .357 are: 1) lower recoil for quicker follow up shots, 2) possibly more capacity (the Taurus Tracker is made in .41mag, .44mag and .357 and has 5 shots of the larger calibers and 7 of .357, the new S&W 627 and Taurus 608 has 8 shots of .357 while .41mags and .44s in the same size hold 6). The advantages of .41mag and .44mag are more power and larger diameter bullets (so marginally more likely to hit a critical area). Any needs to be loaded with the highest penatrating round possible (hard cast lead).

I also have been reading that bear strength pepper spray is the best thing for bear attacks. Remember, that many people survive gun shots and often people can keep on going without stopping too. Bears don't "know" they are supposed to stop when shot- they know you hurt them and they are now mad. They also have better endurance and thicker skin, muscle, bones and a thick layer of fur to get through. Any handgun is far from ideal for bear. The spray will deprive them of their sense of smell, it will swell their eyes so they have trouble seeing, and they will be disoriented. Even if it doesn't stop them, they will be much easier to escape from. Then, if that doesn't work, use the gun.

So, my vote is to get the can of spray, then if you really think you may need to defend against bears, get a revolver.
 
Bears are made of sterner stuff than people to be sure, but black bears are not huge. The average male black bear in the US is about 250 pounds. 400-600 pounds is a big black bear to be sure. There are a few 800+ pound monsters, but theses are the extreme. If the average black bear is 250 pounds it takes more than 9 200 pound bears to offset one 800 pound guys.


In Alaska, in 20 years there have only been 267 documented bear maulings with 56 being fatal. 83% were grizzly/brown bears even though blacks outnumber browns more than 3 to 1 by current estimates. Black bears only accounted for 6 fatalities.

With Black bears causing 6 fatalities and 22 injuries over 20 years in Alaska, I think that black bear attacks in rank very low on my threat-o-meter. If you take to most basic precautions to avoid encounters, the risk is very low. If you are going berry picking by yourself on a misty overcast day or camping in an area where bears have more exposure to humans and you regular carry gun is marginal, you may want to upgun a bit. Don’t get carried away and lose sight of the fact that human are by far and away the most likely threat. 111 national park rangers were assaulted in 2004.


David
 
Any cheap single shot shotgun will work. You simply shoot the wife, throw the gun at the bear and while the bear is eating the wife run very fast to safety.:D
 
The minimium would be a .357 Magnum with 158 Grain bullets or a 10mm auto. I would not use a .45ACP or 9mm. Preferably a .44Magnum would best. You could get away with a .41Mag and not be underpowered even for the larger bears. Yes, one can kill a bear with a .22lr but that would be one hell of a lucky shot.
 
FMJs

To recommend JHPs on black bear is dangerous, IMHO. Most 40/9mm JHPs are designed for penetrating the torso of an upright human, which is not particularly hard material (not major bones/joints in the way). Blasting through the skull or the shoulder bones of a bruin in order to hit something vital is a completely different ball game, and calls for maximum penetration. If I were you, I would go with the Browning HP in 9mm, and load her up with FMJs. (Of course, since you are thinking about the possibility of human encounters as well, there's no law against filling the mag with fmj/jhp, one after the other. Then you have all your bases covered, and 13+1 rounds to do it with.)
 
I saw a quote in a outdoor mag once upon a time that said more folks are mauled by black bears than grizzlies each year, so I think it's foolish to hike in their backyard without protection. I think it really depends on how you wish to carry (Concealed or open) and what size the bears are in your AO. Open Carry: Get a 44 mag or bigger. Concealed: Look hard at that mini Glock (mod 33?) in 10 mm if you really want a new gun. If the bears in your AO are on average 150 to 200 pounds, and I bet they are, I can't imagine a good people shooter wouldn't do a damn damn on them. I agree with the guys who say to go for penetration in your ammo choice though.
 
If you are truly concerned about defending against a bear attack in the woods, I'd buy a new gun. I would think in terms of 357 mag as minimium.

I see the potential of a black bear attack as rather small, I personally would carry whatever you shoot the best and not worry about it. After all, you don't necessarily have to kill the bear; you might just scare it off with a couple rounds in its vicinity. I honestly would be comfortable carrying a 22LR revolver if I shot it the best. But if I'm worried, I would carry a either my 357 or 41 magnum revolver.
 
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