Misfires: Duds, Hangfires, and Squibs

[aaaaa]

I feel like some general discussion is in order here as I am new to guns in the past 1.5 years (other than some shooting I did about 40 years ago). I bought a pistol and a revolver and did some range time. Then a curious event happened at the range with my revolver.

I took two 50 round boxes of Winchester FMJ 38 Special training ammo to the range a few weeks ago. I was firing the S&W 642 and one round did not go off. I knew it was way too soon for the 5 shots to be done. In the back of my mind I knew about one advantage of a revolver is that if you get a misfire, you simply pull the trigger again (vs having to manually rack a semi-auto), so I did. Actually it was not quite like that, when the gun didn't fire (so I thought with my hearing protection) I was confused and just pulled the trigger again (like one might push the button on a video remote if it failed to click the menu the first time). Pulling the trigger again on a misfire is likely a reflexive action and could be very dangerous (in a training situation).

After the last round, I unloaded the cylinder and got 5 empty casings. I didn't think more of it at the time, but then learned of squibs and thought, wow, I must have had a squib. I assume that since my revolver is a snubby, the bullet must have cleared the barrel. Could have been nasty if it were a 4 or 5 inch barrel. I would think that the safety instructions that come with a gun should warn about both squib and hang fire.

So watching videos, the first thing one does on a misfire is hold the gun pointing downrange for 30 seconds in case of hangfire (slow burn of the primer), some videos said 2 minutes. One video, the guy laid the gun down and it fired laying on the bench.

Some squibs will lodge between the cylinder and the barrel, which is the best since then you can't fire again. Well actually having the bullet exit the barrel is the best.

I am curious why the bullet lodges in the barrel, would think there is clearance for the bullet to pass through or does the bullet have to be in contact with the inside of the barrel in order to work the rifling? In the videos people have had a tough time knocking the lodged bullet out of the barrel.

Anyway, caution, eye protection, heavy shooting gloves, holding the gun away from self (that does not work with a rifle though), etc., but above all awareness and resist the impulse to pull the trigger again.

A hangfire in a revolver, if one does pull the trigger again will then come out the side of the gun and may or may not be a problem, depending on the construction of the gun. A hangfire in a pistol if you manually rack may go off while coming out of the gun, not so good, or after ejecting. Not sure what happens if a cartridge explodes laying on the ground or falling to the ground, but don't want to experience it.

Worse is if this happens in a defensive situation. Do you then do the "New York Reload"? I looked that up and it is to drop the gun and pull your backup gun.

Thoughts, comments, advice, your experience?

 

[twarr1]

The bullet is a few thousands of an inch larger diameter than the barrel. It’s a ‘force fit’. A primer alone with no powder can be enough to unseat the bullet and jam it into the barrel.

 

[twarr1]

A round going off laying on the ground isn’t as spectacular as some think. Since the pressure isn’t confined in a chamber, generally the bullet dislodges and goes maybe a few meters, occasionally the case will split. The USArmy has tested this. Along with firing a bullet straight up to see if it was lethal when it came down.

 

[Jim Watson]

I can see three possibilities:
1. You were all enthused, not really keeping count, and did fire five normal rounds.
2. A "squib" was enough to clear the bullet out of a 1 7/8" barrel.
3. You stuck a bullet and blew it out with the next shot. Your barrel is probably bulged and on that gun, the receiver ring may be cracked at the bottom where it is thin over the yoke. Maybe you can find somebody experienced with revolvers to examine it for you.

Hangfires are very uncommon, I have had one ever and seen only one other obvious hangfire in the past 60 years. Maybe there were more when the "30 second rule" was written.
Ammo quality seems low in the panicdemic. I can see high demand from overworked personnel on "maintenance deferred" equipment.

On the range, no report or a funny report should lead to a cease fire and examination of the gun. I had a .22 LR go "squirmph" last week and immediately stopped. Sure enough, the bullet was still in the barrel. It takes more to drive a stuck bullet out than you might think, it isn't like a ramrod for a muzzleloader.

In a gunfight, pull the trigger, rack the slide if an auto; better a ruined barrel than getting shot by an assailant.

 

[Rule3]

I took two 50 round boxes of Winchester FMJ 38 Special training ammo to the range a few weeks ago. I was firing the S&W 642 and one round did not go off. I knew it was way too soon for the 5 shots to be done. In the back of my mind I knew about one advantage of a revolver is that if you get a misfire, you simply pull the trigger again (vs having to manually rack a semi-auto), so I did. Actually it was not quite like that, when the gun didn't fire (so I thought with my hearing protection) I was confused and just pulled the trigger again (like one might push the button on a video remote if it failed to click the menu the first time). Pulling the trigger again on a misfire is likely a reflexive action and could be very dangerous (in a training situation).



Thoughts, comments, advice, your experience?

The above is a grave error if in fact that is what you did!

In a revolver if the round does not go off, DO NOT pull the trigger again. If you do it advances to the next round and if the previous round was a "hangfire) it is not centered over the barrel! Which is why you what 30 seconds to see if it will go off.

In a semi Auto if the round does not go off, it usually will not rack the slide and chamber a new round.

The definition of a squib is a "underpowered load" It may just be the primer, not powder it doesn't have to stick in the barrel, although that is what most refer to.

 

[aaaaa]

I can see three possibilities:
1. You were all enthused, not really keeping count, and did fire five normal rounds.
2. A "squib" was enough to clear the bullet out of a 1 7/8" barrel.
3. You stuck a bullet and blew it out with the next shot. Your barrel is probably bulged and on that gun, the receiver ring may be cracked at the bottom where it is thin over the yoke. Maybe you can find somebody experienced with revolvers

I can't remember the count, but the misfire or whatever it was was somewhere after the first shot and before the last shot. It was weird, that is all I know, and enough to be a wake-up call for squib awareness. I will also have the gun inspected in case there was a squib driven out.

 

[aaaaa]

The above is a grave error if in fact that is what you did!

Whatever it was, I should not have pulled the trigger again until I inspected the gun. I was blessed that nothing bad happened. Wish I had it on video. I don't suppose ranges run video for playback on unusual events or do they? Maybe I call them and see.

 

[Rule3]

Whatever it was, I should not have pulled the trigger again until I inspected the gun. I was blessed that nothing bad happened. Wish I had it on video. I don't suppose ranges run video for playback on unusual events or do they? Maybe I call them and see.

It's over. Move on.

Just remember if you ever hear a funny pop, no recoil whatever just STOP!

Shooting a 642 you will definitely know if the round doesn't fire.

 

[aaaaa]

It's over. Move on.

Just remember if you ever hear a funny pop, no recoil whatever just STOP!

Shooting a 642 you will definitely know if the round doesn't fire.

You got that right. That baby has a decent recoil even with standard (not +P) ammo.

I know, move on but I like sometimes to beat dead horses.

Anyway, my hope is this thread will be about far more than my possible squib.

 

[Alte Schule]

I've had Failure to Feed issues with 115 grain Winchester White Box when shooting my Hi Power 9mm and Failure to Fire/Squib issues with my 3" Ruger LCRx .38 sp when using WWB 130 grain. Don't know if it's the firearm but I avoid those two now. All other Winchester products work as advertised.

 

[WestKentucky]

Hang fires are not as uncommon as some folks would make you believe. I have seen a bunch. A whole bunch, from the same pallet of ammo in various forms. The cause was easy to determine, but the rounds all went… eventually. The pallet of ammo was found in a fishing distributors warehouse. He had gotten a deal on ammo and it wasn’t a big seller at the bait shops so it sat around forgotten. He went out of business and I bought the remaining ammo by the pallet. It was a mix of rifle, pistol, and shotgun ammo. Rifle and pistol was factory reloaded ammo that was actually pretty good ammo that I just burned up as blasting fodder because it was literally $1 a box. .45acp, 9mm, .380, 25acp, 38, 357 etc all slightly cheaper per shot than 22lr. I sold enough at $5 a box to cover the costs. The shotgun ammo is where the issue was. It was all Activ in 12, 20 and a little 16ga. The 20 was on the top of the pile and the boxes showed signs of previous exposure to water as in maybe a roof leak. 12 and 16 were fine. Most of the 20 was fine, but the boxes that had obviously been wet all had some hang fires of varying degrees. Some would go pfft and you watch the shot and wad fall to the ground at the end of the barrel. Some of it would go off like normal. But then some of it would not go for a few seconds. I only had 1 that didn’t go in the gun. I waited a long while before deciding that it just wasn’t going to go and I racked that shell out on the ground and kicked it forward as it fell. After it bounced around and came to a stop it basically caught fire. Melted the hull and smoked. We poured the remnants of a drink on it and kept going.

In hindsight it was really dumb. I should have tossed all of those shells where the box showed signs of water damage, but at that point in life I just saw it as free ammo and treated it as such.

I still have a couple boxes of 16ga “red hornets” that I won’t shoot through my guns but dad likes them for random critters in the yard bothering the critters that belong there. Those shells are MEAN on a raccoon.

 

[Mk-211]

In the military, they teach what is called a pop and no kick. As was stated above, safety the weapon and do not pull the trigger again.

If you can open the action and remove the rounds, do so and then check the barrel for an obstruction.

This happened to my dad, I was loading some mags getting ready to shoot and overheard the conversation as him and some of my friends were laughing. I heard him say, check the ground, the bullet is probably laying on the ground about 10ft away.

When I asked what happened, he described what you said but he was shooting my Sig which is a semi auto. I asked for the gun, cleared it and took the barrel off. About an inch in was the back of a bullet! Had he fired another round, it could've blown the gun up in his hands and face.

Being that you're new to firearms, buy some snap caps. If shooting with friends, have them load one in your gun. That way when you shoot it, it will be a surprise and force you to stop and inspect what just happened.

 

[herrwalther]

Fortunately, I have never had a squib in my hands. But I have heard a few. The most important thing in noticing a squib is difference. If you pull the trigger and you are expecting BANG but get a pop, you might want to stop shooting and check things out. Yeah, the squib might be on the ground or somewhere in front of you. But it could also be stuck in the barrel.

By comparison I have had a lot more hangfires and duds. The difference between the two can be a very intense 5-10 seconds. Nearly all my hangfires occurred on military open bolt weapons like the SAW and M240. I have only had maybe 3 hangfires shooting civilian ammo out of the many hundreds of thousands of rounds I have shot over the years. So hangfires are remarkably rare with recent civilian ammo. On the range, I treat all FTF like a hangfire at first. If it doesn't go off in 10 seconds, I get it out.

 

[Jim Watson]

I should have tossed all of those shells where the box showed signs of water damage, but at that point in life I just saw it as free ammo and treated it as such.

After The Incident of 2010, I had a lot of water soaked ammo. Some of it was sealed well enough, real USGI .45 ACP was flawless, and I am just now down to my last 4 boxes of .22 LR that was a lot better sealed than I would have expected.
On the other hand, I stuck a bullet from a WW JHP that apparently had wet powder but dry primer.
The red stuff around primer and bullet on S&B is not an effective sealant, I pulled those to save the bullets and brass.
And aluminum Blazer that has been wetted won't look any different, but a high percentage of cases will split, eventually bad enough to score the chamber. I had the chamber polished and pulled the bullets from the rest.

 

[trackskippy]

A lot of people seem to like to think that a revolver is a better option for something like this but its actually worse.

Plenty of cutaway pics of revolver barrels loaded up with bullets, and some to the point whoever was shooting, actually reloaded and shot some more!

A lot of times with revolvers, especially those where someone tried to lighten the triggers by either backing the strain screw out, or putting lighter springs in, you will get a lot of random misfires. Ive seen it with dirty 22's too, where the rounds weren't fully initially seated. Usually, the problem seems more of an issue when shooting DA, as you lose just a tad in hammer strike than you get with SA. In those cases, its not usually an ammo problem.

If you do have squibs with a revolver, if you're lucky, it just makes it into the forcing cone, and ties the gun up. At least that way, you dont just keep pulling the trigger if you're not wise enough to check. ANY strange report should make you stop and check.

Ive has squibs that cleared the barrels, and Ive had them where they didn't. Autos normally wont cycle a squib, and at least give you that warning.

As to water damage, in a discussion elsewhere on watertightness of loaded rounds, I took a handful of some reloads and dropped them in a glass of water for a few days. Loaded them in the mag of my one Glock and took it out in the the yard and started shooting. A couple shot as you'd expect, a few were definitely off in report and recoil, but did cycle and clear the gun, and then I had one that stuck just short of the muzzle.




If you get one, youre best off with a revolver, if its close to the forcing cone and not the muzzle. That way you dont have to beat it all the way through the barrel. If I were you, Id take the cylinder off too before you start hammering away.

Autos, either end is better than the middle.

 

[lightman]

Glad you were not hurt and your gun damaged.

 

[aaaaa]

A related question. I am reading "Armed, the Essential Guide to Concealed Carry, by Bruce N. Eimer, Ph.D." He says to recycle your personal defense ammo yearly. That makes sense, you keep that supply fresh as you don't want old ammo in a personal protection situation which could make a hangfire or squib more likely when you least need to deal with it. However, I think the shelf life could be much longer depending on storage conditions (e.g., wet basement vs air conditioned room).

 

[aaaaa]

Being that you're new to firearms, buy some snap caps. If shooting with friends, have them load one in your gun. That way when you shoot it, it will be a surprise and force you to stop and inspect what just happened.

I have some, if it is the same as dummies, which is what mine say on the side. Best is have a buddy at the range to load the revolver while I don't watch and he can slip a dummy in every so often so I am not anticipating it so much.

 

[aaaaa]

I think I finally figured out what happened at the range that day when I pulled the trigger and it did not fire. I remember then that my hand turned off to one side about 15 degrees or so after the trigger pull that did not fire, and the gun fired at the target in the lane next tome. I was stunned and somehow thought I had pulled the trigger again (else why did it fire at that point and me not knowing about hangfires). I think now that the best explanation is that it was a hangfire that had maybe a 1 or 2 second delay at most. The only remaining question is why did I move my hand so the gun pointed ~15 degrees to the right. Will never know but surely it was an awkward movement in response to the gun not firing when it was supposed to. Thankfully, the hangfire was brief else I might have gotten into some real trouble with it either by pulling the trigger again, where it would come out the side of the revolver from the chamber, or worse, if I cracked it open to inspect it before the fire.

Again and always moving forward, and should be in gun manuals, pull trigger, no fire, stop, hold the gun pointed down range for a long time (they say 30 seconds but I wonder if loner is in order), then when all is safe, still pointed downrange, open the cylinder and inspect.

Some might wonder why I am dwelling on this so much, but I want to make the best learning experience of it.

Also, I don't think it was an almost-squib (one that just cleared the barrel) because when I pulled the trigger there was no noise whatsoever that I could discern with my hearing protectors on.