Missed because of my rifle?

[TheOtherOne]

I've hunted the last couple years with an AK-47 (Romanian SAR-1). I took a few shots at a big deer last week and missed it. We went back to the spot the next day with a range finder and it was a 412 yard shot.

The scope I have on my AK has little chevrons for 100 meters, 200 meters and 300 meters. I knew it was far and was aiming with the 300 meter one, but didn't realize how far it actually was. Anyways, if I would of aimed even a little higher do you think I had any realistic chance of hitting it or is it time to think about changing the rifle I hunt with?

 

[rbernie]

Presuming that this isn't a complete put-on: the 7.62x39 round drops below the 800ft/lb of energy generally considered the minimum for a humane deer kill at 200 yards. If you're shooting deer at 400+ yards, you're gonna need a lot more rifle.

But maybe you also oughta work on those stalking skills a bit more and get a bit closer. After all, 400+ yards is a long way away to be shooting at anything that's not bedded down or otherwise guaranteed not to be mobile......

 

[nipprdog]

Missed because of my rifle?

I took a few shots at a big deer last week and missed it. We went back to the spot the next day with a range finder and it was a 412 yard shot.

yes.

 

[Ian]

According to Remington's online ballistics tables, 7.62x39 drops almost 3 feet between 300 and 400 yards. So yes, you likely did miss because of your sight setting.

 

[TheOtherOne]

But maybe you also oughta work on those stalking skills a bit more and get a bit closer. After all, 400+ yards is a long way away to be shooting at anything that's not bedded down or otherwise guaranteed not to be mobile......

I wish I could of got closer but since it was in a clearing at the very top of the hill and getting any closer would of meant walking into thick trees where I wouldn't of been able to see anything, I couldn't. Plus, since I had a perfect view and it stood perfectly still broadside for about 10 seconds I would of been kicking myself for passing up the shot and it really didn't seem as far as the rangefinder proved it to be.

 

[chevrofreak]

Not just the sight setting, but at 400 yards you'd be lucky to hit the deer in the butt.

I dont think I'd ever take a shot on a deer with my AK past 200 yards.

 

[Thumper]

As was already mentioned, your chances of making a humane kill with your set up are far less than your odds of draping the deer's entrails over the nearby bushes and leaving it to die slowly over the next couple of weeks.

Not to rag on you partner, but you took some bad shots.

If I was planning on taking shots outside of 150 yards, I would invest in a better hunting set up and leave the AK for two legged attackers.

 

[JohnKSa]

There is no way in "heck" you should have taken a shot over 400 yards at a "big deer" with an AK.

If you're pretty good with your rifle and using good ammunition you might be justified in taking a shot up to around 200 yards with that rifle/caliber combo.

I wish I could of got closer but ... I couldn't. ... it really didn't seem as far as the rangefinder proved it to be.

That's crazy. You don't take the shot if it's beyond the capability of the combination of you/rifle/ammo. You also don't take the shot if you have no clue what the range is--the fact that you realized it was at least 300 meters should have been ample reason to not take the shot.

You can't blame this one on the rifle.

I just reread the post and realized you took shotS at the deer, not just one. Changing the rifle you hunt with will not fix the problems apparent from your post.

Something else to think about--how can you prove you missed? At that range I wouldn't expect an AK round to leave much of a blood trail from a bad hit.

 

[Mulliga]

If you attempt to take a deer at 400 yards with an AK, you owe your game an apology, written in longhand.

400 yards is a long shot with a .30-06, much less an underpowered carbine round. Please don't do this again.:banghead:

 

[TheOtherOne]

Something else to think about--how can you prove you missed? At that range I wouldn't expect an AK round to leave much of a blood trail from a bad hit.

I guess I can't, but considering it walked off like nothing had happened I'm fairly certain I wasn't even getting close to it. Knowing what I know now, I was probably hitting WAY low.

I always assumed the AK was good up to 1000 meters since the rear sight can go up that high.... now I know better.


To get mule deer at the 400-yard range should you be using something like the 300 Winchester Magnum?

 

[Thumper]

I always assumed the AK was good up to 1000 meters since the rear sight can go up that high.... now I know better.

How many mulies wide is a front sight post at 1000 meters?

.300 Win Mag would be fine. Even an '06 or a .270 would be fine if you're a shooter.

 

[TheOtherOne]

How many mulies wide is a front sight post at 1000 meters?

Plenty I'm sure.... but so would people and if it can't kill a person at 1000 meters then why have that on the sight?

I wasn't taking a 1,000 meter shot with iron sights. I was taking a long shot using the scope and I could clearly see the area behind the shoulders I was aiming at. Thanks to you all, I now know that wasn't smart to do with the 7.62x39mm round. Others I was hunting with said I needed a longer barrel for that long of a shot, but I guess it has more to do with the ammo.

 

[natedog]

A lot of mil-surps and military rifles have ridiculous sight settings. They're a remnant of the early 20th century, late 19th century idea of "Volley Fire", where many many men lob long range rifle fire on a position. With hundreds of men firing in the general direction and elevation, at least one may hit, and it could have psychological affects on the enemy.

Even if you could get the trajectory right, most AKs would be grouping at about 1-2 feet at that range.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

...but so would people and if it can't kill a person at 1000 meters then why have that on the sight?

Something to take into consideration here is the fact that yours is a rifle designed to perform adequately in military conditions. It is, I would suppose, hypothetically possible to hit an area target (such as a very large formation of troops) at 1000 meters. Acceptable military equipment does not neccessariliy equal acceptable hunting equipment.
That sight is in no way meant to be an instrument of precision shooting at that range. Hitting a man-sized target at 1000 meters is quite a feat for any rifle/shooter combination, not to mention a little carbine round like the 7.62x39mm.

Along the same lines, at the gun shop where I work we have a Browning Hi-Power in 9mm with sight adjustments marked up to 500 yards. Ridiculous...

 

[JohnKSa]

Sight markings are sort of like the speedometer in a car. There's no guarantee that the car will go as fast as the highest mark--or that it will be safe at that speed if it does.

Ok, you really got into this the hard way, but here's what you really want to know.

The answer to the question: "What rifle do I need to shoot game at 400+ yards?" is that you should not go hunting any more until you complete the following process.

First, pick a rig that's reasonable for the distance and game that you would ultimately like to shoot.

The AK round isn't as powerful as the 30-30, which is generally considered suitable for deer under 200 yards. If you want to shoot large deer at 400 yards you should be looking for something more like a 30-06 or a 270, etc.

Next you need to know the location and size of the kill zone of the game you are hunting.

Then you should be able to hit it consistently UNDER FIELD CONDITIONS. Not benchrested if you normally hunt offhand. Not using match ammo. Not shooting perfectly level if you might have to shoot at significant up or down angles. Not at 100 degrees if you typically hunt when it's 20 degrees. Not on a calm day if you typically hunt where/when it's windy. The maximum distance at which you can keep all your shots in the kill zone under field conditions is YOUR effective range.

The next step is being able to correctly determine if the game is beyond your effective range or the rifle/ammo's effective range. Range finders make that part easy.

 

[hps1]

TOO:
The only way we learn is by experience. The following information is not meant as a flame, but as an attempt to answer your question.

The 7.62X39 mm cartridge is roughly the equivalent of a 30-30. First of all, it is not a 400 yard deer cartridge. Secondly, any shot over 300 yards IMHO is quite risky, even with a suitable long range cartridge. Lots can happen between the time the trigger breaks and the bullet reaches its target, most of which is bad.

Plenty I'm sure.... but so would people and if it can't kill a person at 1000 meters then why have that on the sight?

The objective of military small arms fire is to kill or wound the enemy. In fact, in theory, a wounded souldier actually removes two or more enemy troops to evacuate the wounded soldier from the battlefield.

Hunting ethics require the swift and humane dispatch of the game animal, which requires more precise marksmanship and perhaps a bit more terminal energy. The hunter should be absolutely sure that both he and his rifle are capable of placing sufficient energy in the kill zone on the animal at which he is firing. Long range shooting requires much practice in order to be proficient.

Not sure what ammo you were using, but, according to Winchester, their 123 grain load trajectory is as follows:

100 yd. = +3.8"
150 yds= +3.1"
200 yds= 0
250 yds= -6.0"
300 yds= -15.4"
400 yds= -46.3"
500 yds= -98.4"

This would place the impact approximately 31" below your point of aim with your 100 yard error in range estimation. If your aim was perfect, your shot probably (hopefully) missed the animal completely. A .008" error in sight picture = approximately 1 moa or 4" at 400 yards just to give you an idea of how precise your aim must be at longer ranges.

Anyways, if I would of aimed even a little higher do you think I had any realistic chance of hitting it or is it time to think about changing the rifle I hunt with?

"Hitting" the animal is not the proper objective, humanely dispatching the animal should be the quest of all ethical hunters. As previously stated, even if your chances of getting a closer shot are nil, one should make the attempt to get closer, again, MHO. If you don't get to make the closer shot, hey, there is always tomorrow.

Regards,
hps

 

[Dr.Rob]

Range estimation is a tough business.

And no, I don't think you had enough rifle at that range.

7.62 x 39 is plenty of gun up close. 400 yards is too much for a rifle like that. Even with serious long range practice the robust AK action just isn't built for precision accuracy at that distance.

 

[TheOtherOne]

7.62 x 39 is plenty of gun up close. 400 yards is too much for a rifle like that. Even with serious long range practice the robust AK action just isn't built for precision accuracy at that distance.

What about the 7.62x54 Dragunov?

 

[c_yeager]

The scope I have on my AK has little chevrons for 100 meters, 200 meters and 300 meters.

FYI the bullet drop compensators on scopes that fit the AK side rail are callibrated for 5.45 (if intended for the ak74) or 7.62x54R (if intended for the dragunov). I don't know of any AK optics that are set up for 7.62x39 since the soviets (who provide the optics) havent used that rifle for something like 30 years.

 

[TheOtherOne]

FYI the bullet drop compensators on scopes that fit the AK side rail are callibrated for 5.45 (if intended for the ak74) or 7.62x54R (if intended for the dragunov). I don't know of any AK optics that are set up for 7.62x39 since the soviets (who provide the optics) havent used that rifle for something like 30 years.

Mine is calibrated for the 7.62x39 round: http://www.impactguns.com/store/russ_posp_4x24.html

The only thing that maybe would be throwing things off is when I sighted it in I did it at 100 yards instead of meters.

 

[artherd]

You need to buy my AR-30 in .338 Lapua. I practice on 4" clays at 600yds.

I am confident I could take deer at similar range given ability to go prone.

 

[HankB]

I'll differ from a few of the comments here . . . having taken deer with a .357 revolver, I don't think the problem is so much a lack of power at 400 yards . . . some people think deer are armor plated. I think the problem is shot placement at that distance using an AK clone.

If you're getting 3" groups at 100 yards, that translates to 12" groups at 400 yards . . . before you even get into things like wind drift and ranging errors.

Have you fired your rifle for group at 400 yards? Or even the 300 meters your 'scope chevrons were marked for?

Are the chevrons even ACCURATE for bullet drop with your specific hunting ammo?

I would have passed up the shot because I'd be afraid of gut shooting it, hitting it in the leg, or making some other kind of non-fatal hit which would 1) wound, but not kill the deer; and 2) prevent me from recovering it.

I'm also concerned that the deer was in a clearing "at the very top" of a hill. I'm not exactly sure of the geometry of your shot, but shooting at a deer on a hilltop is generally a bad idea since a miss or pass-through can sail over the hill . . . and who knows what or who is on the other side?

 

[goalie]

You missed because of the dope behind the rifle, not the dope on the rifle. No offense intended, but sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[Bwana John]

I've hunted the last couple years with an AK-47 (Romanian SAR-1). I took a few shots at a big deer last week and missed it. We went back to the spot the next day with a range finder and it was a 412 yard shot.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[30Cal]

The rifle's fine. You simply were trying to exceed both your own and its capabilities. I don't think "more rifle" is going to cure your problem--it would just allow you to wound animals instead of missing them entirely.

You need to know the limitations of your rifle and your shooting skills before you head out. Set some conservative limits. If you don't know what the range is or have to make a wild guess, then it's too far.

Please, in the future, take only shots that you are positive will result in a clean kill. You paint us all in a foul light by leaving wounded animals in the field and confirm everything that PETA says about hunting.

I have a lot more respect for the man that has the good judgement and self control to pass up a 500yds shot than for the man that bags an animal at that same distance.

Ty