Mitchell Arms Lugers & things like it ... ?

[Swing]

Hey pals.

So, I had to go up to the city today on business and on the way out of town I stopped at a LGS because I had the time. They had a Mitchell Arms stainless steel Luger P08 there on consignment. I handled it and seriously considered just buying it at the $1,000 (even) they were asking. However, I have read really mixed reviews on these, ranging from fantastic to worthless jam-o-matic POS. I also couldn't get this one to lock open on an empty magazine which, as far as I know, it should.

Main questions:

• Anyone have or play with these, relatively, new Lugers? Good, bad, or ugly?
• Am I correct that the toggle should lock back on the repos?
• If I am, what is the likely cause of the issue?
• How does a G sound cost wise? Gunbroker says this is in line with reality, but I thought I'd ask.

Secondary questions. I've always admired the Luger for its handling characteristics. I really wish I bought one or more when they were practically giving them away decades ago. The 90s-vintage repos might scratch that itch or maybe not. That said, can anyone recommend an automatic that:

• Has a grip, more or less, like a Luger.
• Is in a centerfire cartridge. Nine millimeter preferred, but .32 ACP, . 380 ACP, 9mm Largo, etc, would be fine. This would exclude the Luger-esque .22LRs out there.
• Has a single-stack magazine.
• Made from steel and wood. No plastic-fantastic frames.
• Isn't the P38/P1. I've got one. They are fine for what they are, but the grip is chunky for a single-stack and the DA trigger pull sucks on toast.
• Is common enough that I could actually find one.

Thanks all!

 

[tark]

I can't think of a better source to answer your questions than Simpson's LTD. in Galesburg Illinois. Their phone # is 309-342-5800. Mr Simpson is an authority on lugers although he is rarely there. His staff (His sons, I think) can doubtless answer your questions. I never see those Mitchell lugers anymore , I don't think they sold that many. I did examine one years ago and it looked to be very high quality....but. If the one you are considering won't lock back on an empty mag, something is wrong.! I would use this malfunction to leverage for a better deal.

 

[Gordon]

some are rough around the edges and need stripping and polishing in certain areas but they are a pretty close copy. There are pistol smiths who can do a good job on one if they have experience with them Stainless makes the polishing very easy and there are no finish problems. I had one 20 years back which worked ok with ball with no work, the guy I sold it to for what I paid, wanted to shoot HP ammo so he had an Old german gunsmith clean it up. The big issue is the Mitchell magazines are for display purpose only

 

[Jim K]

I have not seen any of those guns, so maybe I am being unfair, but given all the phoney baloney that Mitchell puts out about its other stuff (genuine Nazi WWII rifles made in 1948??) , I would want a pretty solid money back, no questions asked guarantee.

Jim

 

[DT Guy]

If that's the same Mitchell that resurrected the High Standard .22 target pistol line, I would be *very* hesitant; I had a Mitchell Supermatic Trophy that, as I recall, never got through a single magazine without a stoppage even after tweaking.


Larry

 

[Janos Dracwlya]

I got to shoot one in the late 90's. A fellow I met at a local range had one - retirement gift from his co-workers - and offered to let me try it. I shot one of the best groups I had shot up to that time, including two hits on the bullseye of the target. Remember, that's with an unfamiliar - to me - gun. It was a slick gun.

I'm actually starting to look for a Luger. I've wanted one since I was a child, and I've just never gotten around to buying one. If I find one of the Mitchell's, and don't see any issues with it, I will buy it.

 

[Monac]

A) I had a Mitchell Luger some years ago. It looked very good. The magazine only held 7 rounds. (Mitchell gave up trying to make them hold 8 after the first year or so of production; if you have access to Gun Digest Annuals from the period, you can see the change in the listing there). The gun jammed moderately often on 124 grain "American Eagle" (Federal's generic brand) hardball. I bought 2 more factory mags to see if that would help the jamming problem. One was no different from the original, and the other would not lock into the gun. The gun also shot high and to the right, but I never tried to do anything to the front sight, since I did not want to butcher the thing.

B) A friend of mine currently has a Mitchell Luger that he has not fired. By serial number, it is a late production gun. It too looks very well. The instructions did not describe how to dismantle the gun, but simply said to clean the gun with the toggle locked to the rear. This was difficult, because the included magazine would NOT lock the toggle to the rear. We found that the gun could be dismantled in the normal Luger fashion, but the takedown catch was extremely stiff, and had to be forced down with a screwdriver. This is probably a bad practice, since it might eventually break the catch.

C) I also had, and still have, an East German rework Mauser Luger. It is much more reliable and accurate the the Mitchell with 124 grain hardball, and the very well-made East German mags hold 8 rounds. One of them (the one that is NOT numbered to the gun) will not work the last-round hold-open reliably. The gun will not feed 115 grain hardball much at all, but IIRC, there were some kinds of 147 grain HP it would feed pretty well. These East German reworks were always my recommendation for someone who wanted a shooter Luger, but I have no idea how available they are now, or what they cost.

D) The modern pistol that you describe is, almost exactly, the Benelli B-76, which was an all-steel, 8-round, double action 9mm Parabellum pistol with a manual safety somewhat like a 1911. They have the Luger grip angle, and a toggle-descended breech mechanism, but a fixed barrel. The ones I have encountered have been very accurate, but just as finicky as a Luger about ammunition. The one I own will feed 124 grain Remington Golden Sabre hollow points reliably, but will only accept 7 of them in the magazine.

The Benelli was made in Italy, of course, by the shotgun manufacturer of the same name, and was sold in the US from the late 1970's to the early or mid 1980's. It did not sell in large numbers because it was somewhat expensive, and the great demand then was for 9mm's with high-capacity magazines. This makes Benellis scarce now, and often expensive when you do find one. I do not know how their price compares to a good shooter Luger.

The Benelli was more successful in Europe, and versions with different model numbers can be found in 30 Luger, 9mm Ultra, and 32 ACP. There wers also elaborate high-end target versions in 30 Luger and 32 S&W Long, and an intermediate target version (sort of equivalent to an S&W Model 15) in 9mm. That is a very nice gun, although the front sight is like a shark fin, and would make finding a holster difficult.

Parts are probably also scarce to non-existent, but the Benellis are quite sturdy. I did have one that broke a hammer strut, and had to have a friend with machinist skills make a new one from scratch.

 

[Jim Watson]

I would not buy a Luger to shoot without a testfire or a money back guarantee.
Monac is right, the Benelli is your best chance for a Lugeresque grip rake. I remember when Sile was blowing out their inventory cheap and should have bought one, but my pistol money was tied up in a P7.
The Pardini GT series has a similar rake but is double stack and kind of chunky. Expensive, too.
Maybe you could find a Lahti. Not a whole lot less money than a common Luger variant, though.

 

[gyrene]

I own one of these Mitchell Arms stainless P08's, as well as a genuine 1940 Nazi Mauser version. There is a wealth of MISinformation on line about the Mitchell guns. First, they were NOT made by Mitchell's Mausers, the company that sells the refurbished Nazi items. Many people claim that "parts do not interchange" with German Lugers. Wrong. Some claim that even mags do not interchange. Wrong again.

There is so much misinformation about these guns I can hardly set it straight in a single post. Here are the salient points: 1) Get good magazines (not any of the wooden base ones, even Mitchell's own. I recommend NEW Mecgars, or otherwise put new Wolfe springs in old (not wooden base) mags. 2) They are VERY ammo sensitive, and I don't mean just avoid JHP's. There's a ton of garbage on the net about Lugers needing "hot" ammo.... Baloney! Both my Lugers cycle fine with 115gr ball ammo handloads that chrono at 1050fps. What matters is not ammo "strength", but LENGTH. Weird, but true. Most factory 9mm ammo is loaded too short for Lugers. Neither of my guns work at all with Remington (typical COL=1.120") but work great with Winchester White Box 115gr (COL=1.150").

Beyond that, all round nose FMJ bullets are not the same. I have handloaded Hornady RN's to 1.150" and my Mitchell won't cycle it, but load Zero or Precision Delta RN's to exactly the same length, gun cycles fine, no problem. Visually comparing the Hornady bullet to the Zero or PD, and they look IDENTICAL, but obviously something about the ogive is different and affects feeding. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself.

Of course, your Mitchell must be CLEAN (I mean military clean, not the BS civilian give it a spit and a rub "clean"), and properly lubricated. To sum up: use good (new) mags or mags with new springs, use proper ball ammo (either WWB 115gr or MagTech should work), and clean it and lube it. Failure to do any of these things and you will have the Jam-O-Matic people complain about. Oh, and the going price these days starts at $1000 up. These are nice pieces if you know how to treat them. Good luck and happy shooting!

 

[Monac]

One of the reasons that 124 grain FMJ ammo worked better in my Luger and Benellis was its greater overall length than 115 grain ammo. Fiocchi once made (and is making again today, I believe) a 124 grain truncated cone FMJ load that was excellent in both kinds of gun.

 

[Swing]

@Monac. Thank you for the great write up! Much appreciated. I need to do some homework on the Benelli B76.

 

[HisSoldier]

I have a Benelli B80, which is the .30 Luger chambering. For a while they were being sold, I heard, with a 9MM barrel, so you could convert it, well, I was given a 9MM Benelli barrel and the breech end is unfinished, so the extractor groove and ramp need to be formed, not a job for a tyro.
It seems like a good suppressor gun, it's inetertial locking, a toggle pushes the back of the bolt into a shoulder until the slide's inertia lets up, ie. catches up with the frame's recoil. Not Benelli's first inertial lock, a shotgun does that too using a different mechanism but the same inertial principle.
At a pawn shop in the late 90's I passed on a stainless "luger" because I was afraid my wife would clock me, I still regret that. It was beautiful and the guy said it was new, made in Texas, $695. Inflation would make that $1051.49 today.
I went back a week later and the last one was gone. I regularly get clocked by the wife for spending money anyway.

 

[Rock185]

I looked at Mitchells, but was dubious as to their quality and didn't purchase one. I did have a 1918 DWM and, much later, a 1938 Mauser Luger. Neither of mine was reliable, but the Mauser performed best with a new Mec-Gar magazine and Federal AE 124 grain ball. I once got through several magazines, using the Mec-gar magazine and Federal ammo, without a malfunction. Don't have them now thankfully, but always interested in hearing from people with significant experience with Lugers. Never know when I might acquire another, and "Knowledge is Power", and perhaps helpful in figuring out reliability issues where Lugers are concerned.

BTW, Out of curiosity, I bought a new B-76 Benelli back in the day. I studied that thing, but never did figure out how that inertia lock worked. I thought the two half shells welded together to form the frame, like the classic Ruger .22 pistols, was interesting too. I don't know if it was reliable or not, because it was just weird enough to me that I sold it unfired. Too used to FN/Browning Hi Power and 1911 type pistols I guess