mitchells mausers

[morcey2]

Re the white 98 bolts, I'm not disputing that Mitchell's may clean up & re-furbish, but do you have personal knowledge of marks being removed or added, and or serials being falsified (beyond an electro-pencil forced bolt match)?

The electro-pencil doesn't in & of itself disturb me, that could just as easily have been done somewhere in Europe before the gun got to Mitchell's.

I'm asking if you have direct personal knowledge of false STAMPED numbers.

Denis

First, I'm glad you're happy with your purchase. I'd be just as happy to save the money and have to degunk the gun myself, but that's me. The smell of cosmoline grows on you. Maybe not "grows", but "lingers". That's how my wife knows that I've been hitting the pawn shops at lunch.

They didn't do it to 24/47s or M48s because there was no need to. This is what they did to the mass number of RC K98ks that they bought. There is a difference between a force-matched gun and a completely re-stamped gun. I have some electropencil-matched guns and I'm fine with that. It's obvious that it isn't a matching-as-it-left-the-assembly-line gun, but it was refurbished and the bolt had the receiver serial number written on it after it was found to have proper headspace. That's part of the military history of the rifle.

To get the bolt to match, they weld over the old serial number on the bolt and stamp it to match the receiver. The font of the stamps they use is wrong. Close, but wrong. Other parts are given similar treatment. Waffenamps are stamped if they can get away with it. They magically came up with a whole grundle of rare marked K98ks that they sold for a premium. I don't remember if they were single-sig bnz-41s, but it was something like that. It turns out that they had peened the receiver and restamped them (with the exception of the serial number) because, like the bolt, the font they used wasn't quite correct. If they had been original matching-numbers guns with intact swastikas, they would have sold in the $2500 range, or higher. I personally believe that the reason that the bolts were polished and not blued was that the weld would have showed up easier with the bluing than the polish because of the slightly different composition of the steel.

If Mitchell had advertised them as the refinished and force-matched guns that they are, I wouldn't have a problem with them but they specifically sold them as collectible rifles, thus the laughable "certificate of provenance" that accompanies the rifle. That's the problem I have with them.

Matt

 

[Bezoar]

Heres the thing, really.

how do you accuse mitchells of lapping barrels to make them pretty if the rifles, 24/47s, had been rebarreled then put away unused and the sold on the surplus market? ive seen accounts of M48s having been issued during the balkan issues of the last 40 years and put away wet and dirty and well used.

yes i can pay an extra 50 dollars on some of the other dealers to get a "hand picked" rifle, but ive seen a few random posts on how the purchasers felt they had not gotten a nice hand picked rifle compared to someone else who had bought an un handpick option gun.

And i still am trying to figure out the difference between mitchells and fulton armory. both refinish guns. fulton makesa living from selling replica STAMPS so you can finish your rifle rebuild with correct stock markings.

i havent found private sellers wholl do a refund.

 

[itsa pain]

And, despite repeated queries on gun forums, I have yet to get a response from anybody who knows from personal direct experience that Mitchell's fakes serials & stamps.


You would need to know the guy with the hammer and hand stamp set.

Strong historical evidence suggests that the Germans didn't use postwar Yugo Mausers in WW-II though. Just sayin'....


And that guy with the hammer and hand stamps forging rifle markings? Proof? Hmmm.... well.... <shrugs>... not at Mitchells, but in the early 80's I worked as an "armorer" for SARCO, well known for "rubbing magic hump-oil on less historic firearms to give them that historic glow of value-added". I had the hammer and the stamps on my bench. Advice? Don't buy 1980's era SARCO "Collectables" unless you want to match wits with Willies college age creativity...

Shameful now, but it was fun then to watch guys fawning over "rarities" in the showroom. We would *literally* watch a guy talking to his buddy about markings, wait for them to agree that this would be worth a mint "if only", run into the back for "another example", stamp it "CLANG" with a hammer, make rattling noises as we "sorted thru the bins" (while waiting for a dab of cold blue to dry), and appear with "just this one we found in the pile"... <true>. The owner took great delight in this and rewarded us appropriately. It was a spectator sport among the employees with many side bets taken. Contemplate SARCO in the early 80's as a carnival. We didn't even consider taking the rubes money to be dishonest. Now? I'm ashamed of myself for being part of it. To this day I find "Humped Rifles" at gunshows that I recognize.

Oh well... Willie #1 was a bank robber and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.


Beware Mitchell Mausers. They smell of "Magic Hump Oil". Trust Willie on this one. I amassed a collection of well over 200 original Mausers over the years, and worked behind the bench at SARCO and have some inside understanding of this business. Mitchell Mausers aren't right. That's OK as long as the buyer knows it. But otherwise... "CLANG and it's COLLECTABLE".


Willie

.

Funny how Sarco never gets any negativity but Mitchells does

 

[Willie Sutton]

Willie Suton - In other words they're better than the vast majority of the originals with their shot out barrels and pitted steel that can't hit the side of a barn but cost much more. If you're a collector they're not for you, but if you actually use your guns often you're better off buying a Mitchel or Auto Ordnance.


Uhh.... no. I shoot original Mausers regularly, including a nearly new Venezualian that was built in the 1930's with a bright fire blue finish and straw colored controls that I am sure I was the first person to shoot, and a Chilean M1935 banner Mauser marked carbine that still has the bright blue, and a Kar-98K that is about 98%, and a Persian carbine that was unfired when I bought it, and an Israeli marked Kar-98K in .308, and a G33-40 in about 95%... and... and... and..... <fill in another 90+ blanks). I've shot every rifle in my collection, and all of these were gunshow buys over the years. None were particularly expensive and all it took was diligent searching coupled with enough knowlage to know what I was looking at. The difference is that these are all honest.



I collect for the story behind the gun. I have several finn-captured 91/30s that I know have been in battle. The Finns couldn't afford to have any guns idle at all. Same with the VZ/24s I own. They've been-there/done-that. Have the Mitchells? Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows? They scrubbed all of that.


EXACTLY! The Mitchell Humped-Mausers would be more valuable if sold *exactly as they were imported*, with the markings telling their story intact. There's nothing "wrong" with a Russian capture rifle, or an honest Yugo Mauser. It's when they are scrubbed and restamped that they become dishonest.


My shooter M1 carbine that sits in my truck half the time is an Inland, BTW. None the worse for being used.

Shooter grade "original honest rifles" don't cost any more than the dishonest faked stuff, and will appreciate. None of the Mitchell stuff will ever appreciate. If that's OK, then by all means knock yourself out.


Willie

.

 

[Bezoar]

no one cares that samco will refurb the metal on a gun, so why is it that when mitchells does so, its a horrid tragedy?

can you explain?

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Any of the domestic refurbs will always be on a departing valuation from anything that is unaltered from issue and not privately "refinished". The "Mitchell, Samco, Sarco, Fulton, etc" rifles start out a FEW dollars less than a good original and then never appreciate. Meanwhile original rifles always appreciate. Give it ten years and that $100 valuation difference becomes a $300 one, and in fifteen years is a $500 one... in a continuing trajectory as time goes by.

NONE are bargains. You are ALWAYS better off in the long run by buying the very best condition original example you can afford. You will never regret it.

Skimming my own local Armslist for "Things I would buy" if I didn't already have a large Mauser collection. These are typical private sale finds, and all are worthwhile. Look in your own local area and start studying. You'll find good stuff.



http://www.armslist.com/posts/30890...-sale--swedish-mauser-m96-carl-gustavs-6-5x55

A really nice example of one of the highest quality Mausers ever made, in an absolutely wonderful caliber. Accurate, low recoil, superb quality, and very fairly priced. $365


http://www.armslist.com/posts/34538...sale--mauser-dot-44-and-mini-14-liberty-model

Pretty fair shooter grade German WW-II Mauser. Not superb, but definately worth looking at. $550



http://www.armslist.com/posts/31867...for-sale-trade--two-1916-spanish-7mm-mauser--

Spanish carbine, all original, good condition as usual, could be used as a beater or just enjoyed. Not super rare but honest. $125? No brainer BUY.


http://www.armslist.com/posts/34820...-trade--yugo-8mm-mauser--excellent-condition-

Your basic Yugo import Mauser. No photo but we can guess that it's one of the unissued refurbs from Yugoslavia. $350... buy it.


http://www.armslist.com/posts/29670...es-for-sale--vz-24-czech-romanian-mauser--8mm

Romanian issue Romanian refurb Czech VZ-24, original. $320? Buy it....


http://www.armslist.com/posts/34512...user-very-nice-condition-price-drop----------

A Spanish FR-7 for $425? Get some nice mild .308 loads and shoot the heck out of it.



These are just a few examples of HONEST Mausers for sale in my backyard, all could be bought face to face for cash tonight within an hour of my house. Your location ought not be too different. Buying humped stuff from Mitchell? <yawn>... what a waste when there's history for sale in wholesale lots.

Shoot me a PM with your location and I'll spoon-feed you good deals as they come up. The only thing better than buying rifles is buying them with someone elses money... ;-)


Willie

.



















Willie

.

 

[eastbank]

i know of a AX-41 98k in next to mint with every number including wood matching that was bought for 600.00 five or six years ago, sell last spring for 2200.00. these two 98 mausers were bought for 350.00 apiece several years ago, top is a 98 persion and bottom one is a 98 norwegian conversion with all german numbers matching except for the rear sight slider, and it also has matching norwegian numbers too. these two mausers are worth close to twice what was paid for them. eastbank.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Typical appreciations.

I have been buying collectable Mausers for over 30 years now. I started out with VERY modest selections, none costing over $150 and many under $100. I bought some for as little as $39.95 (from K-Mart of all places). Then I worked up to the $250 range. Then I one day spent a whopping $400... on a perfect 99% Kar-98K that must have been never issued. It's a $2000 rifle today in a heartbeat.

The average appreciation has been 100% every ten years. You can calculate that out to whatever annual interest rate you like. Suffice it to say that selling off over 100 at present day prices would net me a pretty good chunk of change.

Had I bought humped-up trash I would be stuck with zero-appreciation trash today.

There are still MANY good values to be had in Mausers. $400 will still buy a GREAT rifle. ALWAYS buy the VERY BEST rifles that you can BARELY afford. You will never go wrong.


Willie

.

 

[Bezoar]

ok willie, heres a good questions for you.


1. all these mausers came to the usa in one of two ways, correct? imported by company or war bring backs.

2. the companies importing htem now are the companies importing them back then.

3. weve had feedback from someone claiming to have been with cai, on this or surplusrifles that he personally helped alter rifles to suit customers conversations about rarities and oddities to pay extra for.

here is the question.


is it better to pay 300 for example, a yugo 24/4 that neighbor george bought in 1997 or to pay 250 for the same model NOW from the same importer he bought from?

true certain models not getting much importation lately, but these models do well like the k31s.

 

[wlewisiii]

ALWAYS buy the VERY BEST rifles that you can BARELY afford. You will never go wrong.
.

^^^^This. My good rifles have almost all nearly broken the bank. My recent 1945 Inland Carbine was no exception. I'm a person with very little disposable income so it's better to wait patiently and then grab the deals that pop up than get all excited and get in a hurry.

Measure twice, cut once & all that.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"the companies importing htem now are the companies importing them back then."


No. False premise.

In the 50's thru 80's there were an entirely different group of importers selling these. None of the current importers even existed. Interarms, Navy Arms, etc.... all gone.

The quality and sheer quantity of Mausers imported then were staggering. Many of the south american contract rifles had AA Fancy walnut, high gloss blue, straw safeties and triggers, and were unfired. Unbeleivable stuff. The last VERY HIGH QUALITY Mausers ever imported was the lot of 1935 Model Chilean Police carbines that were Mauser Banner marked, imported by SARCO in the early 80's. Then after that the HUGE batch of Swedish Mausers imported by Navy Arms in the late 80's. Since then it's been more or less "second grade" stuff.

I started collecting after the big import days were over, but when good rifles were still a $100 "pick one" deal. I've watched those rifles go from $100 to $800 over the years.



"is it better to pay 300 for example, a yugo 24/4 that neighbor george bought in 1997 or to pay 250 for the same model NOW from the same importer he bought from?"

Three words: Condition, Condition, Condition.

Personally? Is one stamped differently than the other? I avoid rifles with importers stamps, and especially import stamps that are "vandalism quality" (Century Arms comes to mind). So given a choice, I always buy older "unstamped" imports when possible. Once stamped I don't care when it was brought in, I just look for condition.

Nowadays you don't have much selection as to what's being imported (Would you like a Yugo, sir, or a Yugo? And we also have a fine selection iof Yugos... care for a Yugo??").

When I frequented Navy Arms in the 80's it was not unusual to see Mausers from fifteen different countries on the rack at the same time. So if you want a Yugo? Buy anything.... Want a FN built "grey ghost" in .30-06 in unfired shape? You're going to need to buy what Sam Cummings imported from Belgium in, oh... 1964. (have two, BTW). I bought Swedish Mausers literally by the dozen of each version from Navy Arms, sorted them out at my own pace for "best of the best" and sold all but two of each model for about a 200% profit each by waiting ten years. One day I found a M96 Swede in the rack with an original scope mount and an Ajak scope on it... an original sniper. Paid the absolutely exhorbitant price of $500 for it. Value now? Priceless. Sort of like the original Hakim sniper next to it, and the original unissued Hungarian Mosin Nagant sniper next to that, and the boxed and matched unfired complete kit of an Enfield No4 Mk1(T) Sniper kit with scope, can, and tools, next to that, and the original .30-06 FN-49 sniper next to that, and the Springfield 1903A4 sniper in 99% next to that, and the M1C, and M1D, and... etc., etc...

Bottom line for collectability?

First thing? ORIGINALITY.

Next four things? Condition, Condition, & Condition.....

Quality always has value. Junk is always junk. Dishonest re-stamped rifles are junk. Even if a rifle has been stamped by ten countries that have owned it, fought with it, lost a war, and then the rifle is re-stamped by the victors, etc., etc... it's all honest. Lose that and it's... junk.



Willie

.

 

[carbine85]

The question I have asked several times is does anyone have pictures and side by side comparisons of an original vs a Mitchell's? I don't question if Mitchell's is faking the Mausers, I just want to see the difference in the stampings, weld-ups and changes.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

Originals WW-II German Mausers are marked in a hundred different ways, so any one side-to-side comparison is absolutely meaningless.

The Mitchells all look the same.

Clue: The LACK of variability is your key to understanding that these are "fixed".


Willie

.

 

[morcey2]

Heres the thing, really.

how do you accuse mitchells of lapping barrels to make them pretty if the rifles, 24/47s, had been rebarreled then put away unused and the sold on the surplus market? ive seen accounts of M48s having been issued during the balkan issues of the last 40 years and put away wet and dirty and well used.

yes i can pay an extra 50 dollars on some of the other dealers to get a "hand picked" rifle, but ive seen a few random posts on how the purchasers felt they had not gotten a nice hand picked rifle compared to someone else who had bought an un handpick option gun.

And i still am trying to figure out the difference between mitchells and fulton armory. both refinish guns. fulton makesa living from selling replica STAMPS so you can finish your rifle rebuild with correct stock markings.

i havent found private sellers wholl do a refund.

I can't comment on Fulton Armory because I know nothing about them. As for your initial assertion, I was referring specifically to the K98ks, not the M48 and 24/47 which I made clear in the same post.

They didn't do it to 24/47s or M48s because there was no need to. This is what they did to the mass number of RC K98ks that they bought.

I've never asked for a handpicked gun and I've never seen anyone charge more than $20 for a handpick. It's usually $10. Most of the "hand pick" strategies go like this: they grab 5 rifles off the pile and the best of the 5 is sent as a hand pick.

I'm sure there were M48s that were rode hard and put away wet, but the vast majority were never fired more than a couple of test/proof rounds when they were manufactured, then cleaned and dipped in cosmoline. (mmmmmmm. forbidden cosmoline..... ) I've never seen an M48 that could be described as anything other than new. And I've looked at way too many of them.

I'm not trying to tell anyone that they're not good guns, but they're overpriced and misrepresented. Of course they're good guns, they're Mausers!

Matt

 

[Ditchtiger]

Bubba remains Bubba even if the end result is "pretty".

Sums it up.

 

[DPris]

Morcey,
You're the first I've seen with specific details of alleged Mitchell's atrocities.

Be interesting to see if the bluing test on the white 98 bolts would bear out your guess.

I've considered buying a 98 from Mitchell's, just to get a "new" (within my definition previously given) full-sized 98 shooter.

I wouldn't be buying it as a collector piece, and the only reason I don't is that I'm too far along in life to be acquiring many new guns that I really can't use.

That cosmoline, by the way, is not my idea of fun.

My first SKS, a "real" Chinese government issue gun (not a later tourist model), came complete in '88 with more than its fair share of cosmoline inside & out.
Took me all day & an entire can of spray brake cleaner to get it degunked.
I did not enjoy the process, I'm about as lazy as they come & resolved never again.

Mitchell's has told me they get the Yugos in crates as large lumps of solidified grease & have to chisel, scrape, wipe, and who-knows-what-else to get down to the pearl inside the oyster.
I cheerfully paid extra to have somebody else do that for me & would again.

The Mosin sniper I bought from them passed the knowledgeable inspection of the Mosin guys at a long-established forum I won't mention.
I sent close-up clear photos of key areas as requested & they were satisfied (as I was) with its authenticity.

Bottom line, I guess, is what I stated before- know what you're getting from Mitchell's, and if you're happy with the idea, get it.
Denis