Mix Safe Action with DA/SA ?

[SAPR]

Folks,

how hard is it to learn DA/SA if you´re used to Glock for quite a while ? I´m into competition only, defense, daily carry or CC is of no importance, we talk about range queens.

I´m asking since I´m in the market for a .45 and wonder if I should just stick with safe action or if constantly switching between to DA/SA is not that much of an issue.

What tempts me is the SA part, as this seems to give me better groups for precision events (tried our range USP Expert a few times). What stops me is the DA part, especially when we do double taps from decocked and holstered position. That´s one of the events we have, mainly consists of draw and double tap. The first time I tried our club USP, the second shot was not very aimed - but I got a great split . BTW, cocked and locked is a no-go for this event (so are the rules), therefore 1911 being SAO is not an option.

I will definitely keep the Glock, as I really like it for timed events and some practical shooting from time to time (plus it was my first gun). But for those events that ask for a little more precision, I wonder if, say, a HK USPt, Expert or Mark23 SA trigger gives me so much improvement that it´s worth the hassle of learning another platform.

Currently, I´m taking a close look at Glock 41 vs USPt or even Mark23 - the latter not for coolness, but longer sight radius and possibly better recoil management due to added weight. I´m pretty much settled for a polymer gun, so SIGs are out, as are 1911s, see above. It really boils down to staying on one platform or adding another.

 

[Zerodefect]

I'd just tune your Glocks for better accuracy. DA/SA is a nightmare. A step backwards IMO. I need the same trigger pull every time. Switching between two triggers in one draw really messed me up. To the point where I think my DA/SA guns were dangerous for CCW use.

My Glock runs rings around my, now gone, DA/SA guns. And it's, sadly, more accurate than my 1911's.

 

[rsrocket1]

Are you allowed to cock the hammer with your first round?
I love the SA trigger on the Sig SP2022, but the DA trigger is so long that it seems like I have to "waste" my first shot in DA. When at the range, if I shoot all my rounds DA, it isn't very bad, but if I shoot a bunch of rounds SA then try a round DA, it feels like the trigger will never break. If I carried this gun for SD, I think I would train to shoot the first round as if it were an SA revolver. A well placed and aimed round is better than shaving 0.01 second off your draw time.

 

[rcmodel]

In real life, of course you are.
DA on those guns is for bad breath grappling distance gunfights.

If you need to make a 25 or 50 yard shot the first shot?
Cock it and use it SA the first shot.

rc

 

[bangswitch]

therefore 1911 being SAO is not an option.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, with the DA/SA stuff. If you're now shooting a striker-fired pistol, are you allowed to start (draw and shoot) with a round already chambered, or do you have to rack one in the pipe on the first shot with the draw?

If you're starting with one in the chamber, it's no great stretch with a 1911 to cock it on the draw, using the thumb of your off-hand as you take your two hand grip. From there, it's no different from the striker fired pistol.

If you have to start with an empty chamber, it's an even proposition between a 1911 platform and a striker-fired one, you have to draw and rack both of them.

However, since you're used to the safe-action, why not just get a G41 for competition?

I used to have a S&W 645 (9mm) ; it had a mile-long DA pull and I hated it. I started cocking it with my off-thumb as I brought it up into the two hand grip and shooting the first round SA, so the pull would be the same as all the others. Worked a lot better, the first round went where all the others did, and I got the first shot off faster, too. It's basically the same technique as cocking a revolver to shoot SA.

 

[SAPR]

I did put a lighter connector into my G17 around a year ago, but still got better groups from the USP in SA. If going for a G41, things may improve, as the G17 is Gen2, bought in the nineties and has a few thousand rounds thru it. I also admit that I could train more often than just once a week .

That one event is: draw, 2 shots in 4 seconds, same target, then holster, then 3 shots in 5 seconds on two targets. Mozambiquish one could say. While manually cocking the hammer may be a loophole, I´ve never seen someone doing so. Would have to ask the officials. If they agree, it´s worth a try. It is normally done with a round chambered, glock is a no brainer, DA/SA need to be decocked for holstering. Don´t ask me who came up with this...

But: Most other events are not using a holster at all, so for them I could go SA only. And for the holstered stage, I can still use my trusted Glock.

My biggest concern is whether adding a DA/SA pistol to the setup will mess up what I trained so far. If using my Glock one day and USP the next does not call for an excessive amount of training, but can be done with some effort, I´m really tempted to do so.

Now that I think about it, I also shoot rifle and shotgun events - those triggers are completely different as well. Maybe it´s less of an issue than I thought.

EDIT: My first thought was G41, but then I wondered if a SA trigger, even in a DA/SA setup, would allow for better scores, due to lower weight. My first impressions from shooting an USP Expert gave me that idea.

 

[BSA1]

It all depends how you train. With my DA/SA handguns I always shoot the first round double action followed by one or two more single action for a total of 2 or 3 rounds. So for 100 rounds I am firing the DA/SA sequence at least 33 times and as much as 50+ times if I stick with two rounds and shoot more than 100 rounds. This practice builds a lot of muscle memory.

 

[herrwalther]

DA/SA is not inherently harder to learn/safer/unsafer/more accurate/less accurate than Glock style actions (I hate the name Safe Action). For example I prefer DA/SA for the options. Having two trigger weights does not hurt my grouping at all. Contrary to what popular Glock trainers like to think, you can be proficient with more than one action type. Just takes practice.

 

[ritepath]

Draw and pull the trigger on a good DA/SA and you'll find it's easy peasy. Shouldn't take more than one session to get good.

You don't even have to spend big bucks, a CZ p-09 will impress you before any mods.

Of course a M&P CORE with the new Apex flat trigger is really calling my name...I love strikers almost as much as SA/DA.


Hell give it a chance, it's a competition not brain surgery if you don't preform well move back to strikers the next week and make up the lost points for the title over the season.

 

[Louca]

I went from shooting a Colt 1911 for 30+ years to an HK 45C for IDPA. I got used to the DA/SA trigger feel just fine. It's only on the first shot, and goes well with finding the target location. The DA pull is longer and heavier, but it is quite smooth. Then after that, it's smooth sailing with the SA trigger.

I had a harder time getting used to the feel of the magazine release and the safety and its use as a de-cocker. But going back and forth between the two guns goes just fine.

Lou

 

[Fishbed77]

DA/SA is a nightmare. A step backwards IMO. I need the same trigger pull every time. Switching between two triggers in one draw really messed me up.

Sounds like more training was in order.

It cracks me up when people complain about DA/SA. The system takes training just like every other, including the Glock-style so-called "Safe-Action," which takes training to overcome the mushy/spongy/springy trigger.

But just like DA/SA, it can be done.

 

[SAPR]

Thanks for all your replies, I hoped for good answers, no platform wars and THR delivered - it´s a really great place for discussion !

So far I´d summarize it like this:

1. Getting a G41 is an option, as the longer sight radius plus factory sport tuning may give me some advantage over what I have now (1993 Gen 2 G17).

2. Getting a DA/SA HK will take some effort to get used to, but it is not unheard of to shoot both and do that well, whether you come from a 1911 or Glock background. Therefore, that´s as good an option as Glock.

So it boils down to more testing, especially for 25 yards precision shots on one hand and double taps from cocked and locked (as described above) on the other.

Hopefully the results can be transferred to the .45 counterparts. I expect that within the families, what differs between a Glock 9mm and a Glock .45 is pretty much the same as what differs between a USP in 9mm and .45.

In case I go the HK route, the next big question will be: which one to get. There is just too many models .

 

[JTQ]

I don't know if you've seen this before, but here is a well known Earnest Langdon video "Fear Not the Double Action Shot" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY

I suspect the hardest thing for striker fired guys to learn when switching to DA/SA guns, is not the DA trigger, but to decock prior to holstering.

 

[guyfromohio]

Some are easier than others. I've found the older gen Smiths to have very heavy transitions. I like the Sig DA/SA transition, but find the CZ decockers to keep the hammer at a great 1/3 cocked position. It's nice IMO.

when training draw and fire, I don't notice any difference any more.

 

[Plan2Live]

Switching between two triggers in one draw really messed me up. To the point where I think my DA/SA guns were dangerous for CCW use.

Please expand on this statement. If it takes more deliberate effort to make the first shot in Double Action mode, how could that be less safe than taking the first shot with less effort and concentration? As for the transition to the second shot, if I'm justified in shooting something once I'm probably justified in shooting it twice so IF I'm being sloppy and not riding the reset and I let that second shot go off a tiny portion of a second sooner than I might have intended, it will occur in such a short time frame it won't matter. Now, if you can't keep your muzzle on target then you may have a point....and need more training.

For the OP, do an Internet search using the phrase Press Out Shooting Technique. You will find some good advice on shooting DA/SA in competition. Learn to properly perform a press out on the first shot and learn to always shoot from the trigger reset on subsequent shots and you will be fine.

 

[strambo]

For the OP, do an Internet search using the phrase Press Out Shooting Technique. You will find some good advice on shooting DA/SA in competition. Learn to properly perform a press out on the first shot and learn to always shoot from the trigger reset on subsequent shots and you will be fine.

Yes, mastering the DA/SA isn't that hard or take long with proper training. I consistently hung with SWAT cops running 1911s at Gunsite and was one of the top shooters in my class. Just this month was within a second of a shooting school instructor on 2 runs of a "21" drill. 21 shots (2 mags changes), 21 ft, 21 seconds, varying round counts on 4-6" shapes. I was running a P226, him a S&W M&P.

I don't practice nearly enough and do not shoot competitions.

A SA only like a 1911 certainly has the best trigger. A striker fired gun has a decent trigger for every shot. A DA/SA only has the DA first, then all others are SA which are better than a striker trigger. Once you master the DA first shot and the trigger reset/transition, they can be run very fast.

For high level competition, I'd go with whatever the top shooters are winning with as 100ths of a second may matter but for non-top level competition and general use the DA/SA can do very well.

 

[Zerodefect]

Please expand on this statement. If it takes more deliberate effort to make the first shot in Double Action mode, how could that be less safe than taking the first shot with less effort and concentration? As for the transition to the second shot, if I'm justified in shooting something once I'm probably justified in shooting it twice so IF I'm being sloppy and not riding the reset and I let that second shot go off a tiny portion of a second sooner than I might have intended, it will occur in such a short time frame it won't matter. Now, if you can't keep your muzzle on target then you may have a point....and need more training.

Yeah. It's the flyer on the 1st shot that's the liability. A miss could end up in someones kid. The last thing I need after a rushed, and possibly screwed up draw, is a super stiff, ungainly trigger pull. Followed be a loose creepy second shot.

And when I do get the 1st one on target, adjusting for the second pull throws me a good distance off the other. Every one of my DA/SA life sized targets, under stress, had a group for the 1st shot, and a group for all the cocked shots.

Surely could train it away. But unless I'm military and stuck with an M9, I'll just toss the obsolete pistol and get a better one. It's too much for me. I'm supposed to be concentrating on surviving, not the most basic of gun techniques.

I'll never CCW a DA/SA pistol ever again. I feel that they were designed for carry safety by PD's scared of switching up to autos. Not for fighting and safely hitting the target, and not spraying liabilities.

 

[strambo]

The long DA trigger pull is unforgiving of poor trigger control. For that reason I think everyone should at least own and practice with a revolver on occasion. It teaches a smooth press straight to the rear...or you'll get a poor hit. This translates over to a SA making you a better shooter on whatever platform.

In the course I just took, it was a 1-day focusing on threat anatomy and making precise shots. All we did for 90% of the shooting was fast single shots at various ranges from 5-18 yds from different angles. Since I was running the P226, that means 90% of my shooting was DA only. I shot as well as anyone, better than most. Lady next to me was rocking a S&W .357 magnum with stout 38 Spl practice loads. She did also very well and was a great shooter.

I know the OP asked about competition...contrary to the poster above, I think the DA/SA is a great military sidearm and defensive carry gun. You get a first round w/o a safety but a trigger pull as safe and manageable as any revolver, then all others are a nice single action. Best of both worlds IMO.

I was a die-hard 1911 guy with the exact same sentiments as Zerodefect about DA/SA guns until I got issued a Sig P266, given a day of excellent instruction on it, and sent to Baghdad with it.

After that experience, I realized mastering the DA/SA with proper instruction followed by dry fire is no drama and doesn't take much time.

Of course, there is also no reason to choose one either if you don't want to....plenty of other good options.

OP-looking at the drills you posted, a DA/SA will not be a liability at all. Only a top level world class shooter would be limited by the platform. If you shoot a USP well, go for it. All you have to do is master the DA shot and trigger reset on the transition. After that it's like jamming the pedal to the floorboard, all out as fast as you can press the SA trigger keeping them all in 6" at 7yds provided your technique is there.

With a DA, you start the trigger press when the hands come together and press smoothly as the gun is punched out so the shot goes off the same instant you reach full press as you verify sight alignment. You then allow the trigger to get to the reset point during recoil and take up slack prepping the next shot to press off as soon as the sights settle down.

You can practice dry fire by doing lots of DA presentations followed by a DA shot, keeping the trigger back and racking the slide with your other hand to practice the reset/SA transition. Even better if you have a partner to rack the slide while you just dry fire.

 

[GLOOB]

It all depends how you train. With my DA/SA handguns I always shoot the first round double action followed by one or two more single action for a total of 2 or 3 rounds. So for 100 rounds I am firing the DA/SA sequence at least 33 times and as much as 50+ times if I stick with two rounds and shoot more than 100 rounds. This practice builds a lot of muscle memory.

If I trained like this, I'm afraid I would decock the gun after 2-3 shots, even if the threat was not stopped. If not actually decock the gun, at least get an itching feeling that I am supposed to be doing something. But I'm kind of an idiot.

I treat my DA/SA guns same as my Glocks. I shoot 'em and keep my finger out of the trigger guard when I am not on target and ready to fire. Whether the gun is in DA or SA, I don't try to keep tabs or even care, until it's time to holster or otherwise release my shooting grip. And I don't holster or hand off or put down a gun without stopping and giving it conscience thought, even my Glocks. If I ever have to holster a gun under stress or without thinking about it, I might just shoot my leg off. Thankfully, there's no competition I know of for how fast you can holster a gun.

 

[strambo]

I only decock after scanning (and scan after every string of fire be it 1 round or 10) so it doesn't build any training scars that way.

 

[Jim Watson]

My H&K USP was inferior in the crunch-tick to CZ75 and P226. I don't know about their later models.

 

[gc70]

Learning to manage a longer, heavier trigger pull makes a shorter, lighter trigger pull even easier, hence the OP's observation about better precision with a SA trigger compared to a Glock.

 

[HexHead]

Split the difference. Try an HK45 with the LEM trigger.

 

[Jim Watson]

Something to ponder.
While the Glock and other "consistent mush" triggers like SW and XD are popular in USPSA Production and IDPA SSP, the CZ75 leads the league in IPSC Production.
Why? Because IPSC Production, unlike the predominantly Yank outfits, has a minimum trigger pull for the first shot, 5 lbs or the metric equivalent.
That means if you shoot a Glockoid, it will be 5+ lbs mush all the time, but a tuned CZ will be 8 lb for the first shot but 3 lb crisp thereafter.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Yeah. It's the flyer on the 1st shot that's the liability. A miss could end up in someones kid. The last thing I need after a rushed, and possibly screwed up draw, is a super stiff, ungainly trigger pull. Followed be a loose creepy second shot.

The potential is there in SD situations for collateral damage. That's why it is important to know when to shoot as well as how.

I think it is strange that you think that you are accurate enough to safely get the job done in a high stress SD situation with single action but would miss by a large enough margin to jeapardize someone's child if the trigger was 5# heavier. If a DA trigger causes someone to miss by that margin, they need to put in a lot of practice before considering carrying a firearm for SD.
This is of course assuming that you're going to keep a cool head while in a life threatening situation. Personally, I've never been in one so I have no earthly idea how I would react and unless you have, you don't either. However, I would suspect that your adrenaline would be at such a high level that you wouldn't notice how long the trigger was or how hard.

And as for the last part of the sentence I quoted, if my single action trigger was loose and creepy, I'd send it back to Sig and tell them to fix it. I have one of the least expensive DA/SA guns on the market (a Sig SP2022) and the trigger is pretty darn crisp and consistent.

Just so you know I'm not just a Sig fanboy, I also have a striker fired handgun as well that gets carried more often than the Sig because of the size. I don't mind that trigger on it, but much prefer the DA/SA.