(MN) Better ways to save your life than guns

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Drizzt

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Better ways to save your life than guns
Karin Winegar

Published April 18, 2003 WINE18

I am really, truly baffled by this one -- the concealed-carry gun proposal, that is.

My father makes, trades and collects guns as a hobby, and I grew up shooting cans at the gravel pit or walking the newly harvested rows of corn carrying a .12 gauge with him -- the early morning walking through wide, still beauty was the point, really, not the pheasants, ducks or the deer he brought home.

At summer camp up North, I adored shooting class, lying prone with an old bolt action single shot rifle and firing into bull's-eye targets in the woods. The little NRA medals are still in my jewelry box: Marksman First Class, Sharpshooter, Sharpshooter First Class, Bar I, Bar II and on down the ranks of bronze, silver and gold.

I find trap shooting a real thrill. Aim, swing, follow, breathe, squeeze. There is grace in the sport and the satisfying pulverization of a clay pigeon as it flies.

And I admire the beauty of wood grain gun stocks, the blue-black finish of the barrels, the floral scrollwork, the heft and balance of a fine pistol or rifle.

But I really can't see why anyone -- especially in Minnesota -- can show a well-substantiated need to carry a gun. We are not pioneers plowing the field with our black powder rifle leaning on a nearby stump, after all. And we have long since given up our need to shoot dinner.

There are concealed-carry laws in 23 states and more are pending. Minnesota is one of them. In the roiling fear compounded daily by nonstop bad news, even Minnesota, a heavy hunting state, may become an equally well-armed handgun state.

But why? Of the 50 states, Minnesota is 42nd in aggravated assaults, 38th in burglaries, 36th in robberies, 35th in vehicle theft, 35th in murder, 29th in larceny/theft. It is, I note, sixth-highest in rape, which may say something about Minnesotans' willingness to report rape, a notably underreported crime, as well as the comparative numbers of rapes.

In Minnesota, violent crimes have dropped from 359 in 1994 to 280 in 2000. One might conclude that the so-called personal protection law up for consideration in the Legislature is not in response to actual threat but to collective jitters about something else altogether.

Widespread permission for anyone but police to carry firearms is just a plain bad idea. On any given Saturday summer night, my neighborhood is punctuated by drunken howls and speeding cars of young guys partying. Add semiautomatics to the mix of hormones, alcohol, bad judgment, protracted immaturity and a childhood spent marinating in violent video games, and what do you suppose we will have?

And no matter how Schwarzeneggerish it makes us feel, a .38 or a 9-millimeter or even an AK-47 are not much protection against anthrax, smallpox, suicide bombers and nuclear radiation. They are not much protection against heart disease, either, which is the chief killer of Americans (270 per 100,000), or cancer (203 deaths per 100,000) or diabetes (25 deaths per 100,000).

Carrying a handgun is an 18th-century solution to a 21st-century anxiety. We are scared and angry, yes, but a .357 will not make my 401(k) bounce back to its once-robust self or bring back the people who died in the World Trade Center towers. And it is really useless against drought, flood and famine.

Want to save your life? Carry sun block, not sidearms. Melanoma is a real threat (7,400 deaths in the United States last year and a 160 percent increase in middle and older white males over the last three decades). Or stay out of cars: 43,200 Americans died in car accidents last year.

Want to live longer? Get married: Married men live years longer.

And if I may be frank, a condom provides better security than a Colt: AIDS/HIV is the leading cause of death for black American men 25 to 44 years old and the third-leading cause of death for black women in the same age group.

Want to deter bad guys in other countries from committing mayhem here? Eliminate the fury and discontent bred of poverty -- what author Thomas L. Friedman calls "the hanging around guys," the unemployed and hopeless young who need a mission and find it in fundamentalism. However quick and easy and macho it seems, a Beretta in your belt won't do that.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/3832552.html
 
Widespread permission for anyone but police to carry firearms is just a plain bad idea. On any given Saturday summer night, my neighborhood is punctuated by drunken howls and speeding cars of young guys partying. Add semiautomatics to the mix of hormones, alcohol, bad judgment, protracted immaturity and a childhood spent marinating in violent video games, and what do you suppose we will have?
More G-D "What-ifs" :rolleyes:

If "Widespread permission for anyone but police to carry firearms is just a plain bad idea." then show me the numbers to back it up, otherwise shut up.

In fact the numbers back up disarming the police before disarming the citizenry (police are 5 times more likely misidentify a criminal and shoot them then law abiding citizens).

To paraphrase Lasarus Long Anything that is not expressed mathematicaly is merely an opinion.
 
Breaker 1-9, its none of your damn buisness how I choose to protect myself.


Cant wait till the CCW bill is passed this year. Looking forward to the Ole' West environment that Im told will exist after its passage. I dig history! Oh, and I dig role play too....! Im going to role play that im Hoss from Bonaza when this thing passes!


Diesle
 
It is, I note, sixth-highest in rape, which may say something about Minnesotans' willingness to report rape, a notably underreported crime, as well as the comparative numbers of rapes.

Wishful thinking. A danger exists, yet she wants to explain it away with other crime statistics and her own speculation. Wait until it happens to her, then she'll be leading the charge for CCW.

I'd make a guess that she and her dad have a difference in viewpoints on the issue.
 
She's kinda missing the point, which is why are there laws restricting out fundamental rights? Let's just assume everything she says is true; so what? Maybe there really is only a very small chance that CCW will save my life someday; in fact, I'm sure that's true. The point, however, is that the government should not restrict private rights unless there is some compelling reason to do so, and in this case the evidence does not support such restrictions. Private, or individual, rights are the foundation of this country, and they should not be so lightly dismissed. Plus, perhaps unfairly, I cannot escape the belief that if the crime figures in Minnesota were higher, she would site them as proof that we must "get the guns off the streets." You can't have it both ways.
 
response I just sent to the Strib

In Ms. Winegar’s opinion piece, she muses, “I really can't see why anyone -- especially in Minnesota -- can show a well-substantiated need to carry a gun.†Yet she also reports, “[Minnesota] is, I note, sixth-highest in rape, which may say something about Minnesotans' willingness to report rape, a notably underreported crime, as well as the comparative numbers of rapes.†This statistic may well also say something about which Minnesotans, deprived by law of adequate means for defending themselves, are more at risk for being victimized. While I willingly grant that a handgun is no help against the threats of organized terrorism, it has shown itself to be a good tool against rape.

Citizens who trouble themselves to comply with concealed carry licensure laws are not the bad guys. In states that have liberalized their concealed-carry laws, the new licensees have proven to be significantly more law-abiding and less violent than a random cross-section of the state’s population.

The other solutions Ms. Winegar proposes, from sun block to condoms to leaving the car at home, are good ones. But with them, she sets up a false dichotomy. It’s not an either-or choice. Each solution addresses its own set of potential harms. When her neighborhood becomes raucous with drunken howls and bad judgment, one of the semiautomatics in the mix could, legally, be her own. Having it doesn’t mean she has to use it. It only gives her the choice, should she need it.

Nualle Schallenberger, Minneapolis

---------

Thanks, Drizzt, for posting this article. I probably would never have seen it otherwise.
 
There are so many fallacies, false dichotomies, straw men, and other failures of logic here -- where would you even start?

One point that comes to mind: I note that part of her "reasoning" in claiming that Minnesotans don't "need" to CCW is that the crime rate there is so low (excepting rape, which she explains away with no substantiation whatsoever). Of course, if the state's crime rate were high, that would be the basis for her argument that CCW shouldn't be permitted.

Heads she wins, tails we lose. You just can't argue with reasoning like that.
 
Now, now, Dan, maybe her editor screwed that one up.

Or, more likely, she's another from the Clinton/Brady school of "I'm an avid hunter and sportsman, but these people are just going too far!"

(Remember, Clinton has an NRA Life Membership jacket somewhere--only he can't find it and the NRA has no record of his membership. And he appreciates, in his words, the "beauty of a morning spent after ducks with this fine duck rifle in my hands.")
 
I read this in the "Red" Star Tribune yesterday.:cuss:

And no matter how Schwarzeneggerish it makes us feel, a .38 or a 9-millimeter or even an AK-47 are not much protection against anthrax, smallpox, suicide bombers and nuclear radiation. They are not much protection against heart disease, either, which is the chief killer of Americans (270 per 100,000), or cancer (203 deaths per 100,000) or diabetes (25 deaths per 100,000).

Sheesh! :uhoh: I guess I'll get rid of my guns since they can't protect me from cancer.

This seems to be the liberal mindset that keeps dweebs like my liberal congressmen in power. If only they were in charge, they would solve everything.:rolleyes:

I'm preaching to the choir here I know. Nualle -- I hope your editorial letter gets published.
 
But why? Of the 50 states, Minnesota is 42nd in aggravated assaults, 38th in burglaries, 36th in robberies, 35th in vehicle theft, 35th in murder, 29th in larceny/theft. It is, I note, sixth-highest in rape, which may say something about Minnesotans' willingness to report rape, a notably underreported crime, as well as the comparative numbers of rapes.

The author answers her own question in this paragraph. Take out the numbers and the paragraph reads:

But why? aggravated assaults, burglaries, robberies, vehicle theft, murder, larceny/theft, rape.

No matter what the percentages, or state's ranking in these crimes, THEY ARE HAPPENING even in MN. Well, I hope the author is never a victim of a crime, but if she is, at least she'll be wearing her sun block, and will most likely have condoms to offer the rapist. :rolleyes:
 
Karin, Karin, Karin.

"I really can't see why anyone -- especially in Minnesota -- can show a well-substantiated need to carry a gun." So, even a domestic battery victim, who might even get a CCW under current discretionary MN law, should be denied her right to save her life?

Your rate of rape alone is sufficient reason that MN should become the 35th shall-issue state (NOT the 24th).

By your logic, a condom's usefulness is diminished by the fact that it offers little protection from heart disease.

Your peace train really flew off the rails in that last statement that we should "eliminate the fury and discontent bred of poverty". Well, Kumbaya. I believe Osama's grievance was with Americans and "Zionists" on Muslim "holy land", not about poverty. If they believe lies and want to destroy the USA because they live in mud huts despite all their oil, it's their problem and nothing will reconcile that. Granted, your blame-America cheapshot is consistent with your logical void.
 
I'm still agog over the fact that she shot a .12 gauge as a little girl.

Do you realize that a punkin' ball from one of those things would weigh over ten pounds? :eek: ;)


These antis that preface their remarks with tales of daddy's gun collection get on my nerves. It reminds me of hearing "Some of my best friends are black/Jewish/gay/whathaveyou"... :scrutiny:
 
Someone should ask...

....this Karin lady what guns will protect against, since she helped us out and named everything they dont help with.....maybe im wrong, but a gun can protect you from robbery, assault, carjacking, yada yada, just like gbelleh said.....if she had rather trust the police thats is her business
BSR
 
Tamara, ten pounders must have been common when she was a little girl. Ahoy, matey!:D

Just like I kid my mother-in-law about not liking my new beard. I tell her that must be why she didn't vote for Lincoln.

But it cuts both ways. My sister-in-law says I look like Maynard G. Krebs. Yeah.... maybe if Gilligan was 250 pounds and mean as a pit bull.:scrutiny:
 
Add semiautomatics to the mix of hormones, alcohol, bad judgment, protracted immaturity and a childhood spent marinating in violent video games, and what do you suppose we will have?

The same thing 35 other states already have: an unusually low incidence of violent crime committed by people who legally keep and bear arms.

Leftists are moral and intellectual parasites—and fools who believe their irrational fears trump the nation's civil rights.
 
Wow, somebody against CCWs, but without any directly relevant facts and statistics to back up her opinion.

What a suprise! :rolleyes:
 
Another pompous retrograde who won't be detered by the fact of CCW success ... in every state where it has been wisely adopted so far.

Silly sarcarsm doesn't substitute for logical argument and fact ... Karin Winegar is a fool, and the good folks of Minnesota will be wise to look past such foolishness.

One needn't wonder long how Winegar would feel ... if she was one of those rape victims. Easy to be glib when you've never confronted evil violence, eh?

Regards from TX
 
Same Paper:


Dave Matheny: Guns don't have power to cloud minds
Dave Matheny

Published April 20, 2003 DMAT20

The question came up in a casual conversation. I had mentioned that I own several guns to an acquaintance, a woman. She was slightly shocked, but did her polite best to conceal it.

She looked at me speculatively as she formulated a question. I'll try to reproduce it just the way she asked it: "Do you ever . . . I mean, do the guns . . . ever influence you? I mean, do you sometimes feel like you should use them?"

She meant: Does the dark power of the guns ever creep over me? Do they call to me in the dark night of my soul? Nope. Just like the hammer on my workbench doesn't call to me at night. ("Daaa-veey, Daaa-veey, come and whack something.")

I won't bore you with numbers. It's enough to say that about half of all American households have a gun or two somewhere around the house.

This is a message of reassurance for that other half, who don't have guns in the home but who grew up knowing all about them from what they saw on TV and in the movies. I'm saying: Be not afraid. Guns do not have the power to cloud the mind.

The Minnesota Legislature is considering a concealed-carry bill. Those of you of the never-owned-a-gun, wouldn't-have-one-in-the-house persuasion will think that if the Legislature passes any new gun law, it should be one that restricts guns, for heaven's sake, not one that actually makes it legal to carry them.

Does the presence of a gun incline a person to use it? I could just tell you it doesn't, but you might believe the results of a vast experiment better. The experiment involved half a million Americans, mostly male, in their late teens and early 20s, away from home, stressed out, with plenty of alcohol and drugs around, more than half of them carrying machine guns. Sounds like Armageddon, yes?

No, sounds like American forces in Vietnam, where a majority of the troops carried M-16s. They got into fights, of course, but the fights were conducted with fists, feet, elbows, whatever -- but almost never with guns. Ask any Vietnam vet about the rarity of gunfights among the troops.

Actually, all our wars have been such experiments. But starting with World War II, though, the guns were semiautomatics -- held to be very evil guns in today's media -- moving into fully automatic assault rifles (good heavens) since the 1960s. Even in Iraq: Apart from one soldier's alleged use of a gun and hand grenades against fellow troops in the present Gulf war, there have been no reports of American troops using their guns against each other.

Even in the Old West, when everybody had shoot in' irons, gunfights were pretty goldurn rare, Hollywood notwithstanding.

I think the deep-seated feeling that when a gun is present it must inevitably be brought into play was planted in our brains by thousands of TV shows and movies we've all seen over the years. There is a dramatist's rule that dictates that The gun that is seen in Act I must be fired before the final curtain. If not, the audience is left feeling vaguely incomplete, unfulfilled, dissatisfied.

See gun. Gun go boom. Man fall down. Roll credits.

But in the real world, as that gun-familiar half of the population knows, guns don't do that to people. They emit no mind-influencing rays. They are not the devil's right hand.

There are a lot of bad guys out there carrying guns. They don't apply for carry permits, and wouldn't get them if they did. They are the ones to worry about, not the law-abiding. And no, the possession of a gun won't turn good men and women into bad guys.

Dave Matheny is a freelance illustrator and writer in the Twin Cities area.
 
Oh.. So I'm suppose to be more afraid of Ronald McDonald killing me, than someone trying to rob or mug me?

Swimming pools kill more children than guns annually.. So I should fear water now huh?

The stupidity of some of the things said, just makes me lose brain cells reading about it.

That's just 5 minutes and like 3,000 braincells I won't get back.. Great..
 
SOOO

:confused:
[Eliminate the fury and discontent bred of poverty -- what author Thomas L. Friedman calls "the hanging around guys," the unemployed and hopeless young who need a mission and find it in fundamentalism. However quick and easy and macho it seems, a Beretta in your belt won't do that.]

I AND WHEN THOSE “HANGING AROUND GUYS†DECIDE TO COMMIT A CRIME THAT DIRECTLY EFFECTS THE HEALTH OR SAFTY OF ME OR MINE MY “BERETTA†OR GLOCK OR KIMBER WILL DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT. THIS IS THE SAME LOGIC THAT SAYS CAPITOL PUNISHMENT IS NOT A DETERENT. WELL, IT CERTINALLY MAKES SURE THAT THE INDIVIDUAL THAT IS PUNISHED THAT WAY WILL NOT BE REPEATING THEIR CRIME.

;)
 
I just love how all these idiots always start out with; "I've been shooting since before I could stand; plinking at tin cans with my paw, using my granddaddy's gun. BUT..."

:rolleyes:

As if plinking at a few cans makes this moron any sort of an expert on law or intelligent enough to use toilet paper correctly.

Her ignorance is demonstrated with this quote, among many others:
It is, I note, sixth-highest in rape, which may say something about Minnesotans' willingness to report rape, a notably underreported crime, as well as the comparative numbers of rapes.
Oh, so as long as we report rape (AFTER THE FACT, of course) that makes it OK, and serves to prevent rape? :scrutiny:

I won't even bother quoting the rest of her verbal vomit. The rest of her dribble about "guns are useless against flood and famine."

Well, NO :cuss: -ing crap!!!

I could not possibly be more dumbfounded by those sentiments.

"Well ya know, this BMW might get ya laid on the weekends, but if your family's starvin, ya can't eat it! It also won't protect you from STDs!!! Better not buy it!!!" :rolleyes:

Right tool for the job, idiot.

And I can think of a few that should be used on you... :banghead:

Edit because I just saw the source and realized it is a woman writing this article, which makes it even worse.

I hope she is attacked someday and rethinks her stance on guns. (NOT raped; just attacked)

If she doesn't....survival of the fittest....
 
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