Model 94 Top eject

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rhtwist

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Hello,
I have a winchester model 94. I would like to get an idea of it's manufacture date. How is this done? #4726XXXX is the hopefully good enough serial number. Rattles a lot. It has a seen a lot of shooting according to gunsmith. What are the chances of rebarrel or rebore. Is it worth the cost?
Thank you for any help!
rhtwist
 
Hello Scooter22! Thanks for the information and the pdf. I took it to the gunsmith as I've never owned a 94 and was concerned about the possible issues that I've stated. You have confirmed pretty much what he told me, although he mentioned the condition of the rifling and barrel. I haven't been on the forum in a number of years, but I've known it to be a good source of information. Kinda premature as I've only put a quick box of Federal through it.Will take it out and do some more in depth testing of the accuracy. I am not very good offhand even at only 25 yards. Late 70's sounds pretty good, thanks.
BTW I love lever action rifles!!!
rhtwist
 
My main concern is the "gunsmith" isn't qualified. It would take a ton of shooting to wear out Model 94 thats 40 years old. Mine was my grandfathers from 1928 and is well used but is fine and accurate. Take yours to the range and shoot it at 50ydas for function and accuracy. All my iron sight 30-30s (5) will group 3" or less at 100yds. The good loads around 1".
 
I’ve got a ‘70’s mfg M94.
My older brother. An AirForce NCO, bought it off an airman going oversees in the early ‘80’s. ($75.00, more than the $50 a pawn shop offered...) He and my nephew shot it extensively with both jacketed and cast bullets. The latter, in 2lb coffee cans full, mostly loaded with 7.5gr of Unique. It’s been from Florida, to Alaska, Maine, Montana, back to Alabama and Georgia.
He killed the largest whitetail either of my brothers or I have killed, with it in ‘07. (200lb+ 10pt). 150gr Hornady RN over 33.5gr of H4895,got the last 10rds he ever loaded. I inherited it after he passed in ‘12.

It has always rattled like a “box of rocks”, but it’s under 2moa at 100yds with its Weaver SourDough reciever sight I gave him circa 1989. I haven’t touched the sights, but find it’s shoots all factory loads and most handloads at full-power loadings to +3” at 100yds. (That’s 3” high, not 3” groups!!!). Full power cast bullets (155-170gr) likewise. Mouse fart loads shoot to poa at ~25yds. It ain’t real “Perdy” but it’s all business. It’s lasted two generations. I expect, several more.

I’ve got two grand Daughters that’ll get to fight over it and my 1990’s XTR (beautiful rifle!!!) It likewise wears a sour-dough reciever sight.(angle eject). I mostly prefer Marlins, but do have three Winny’s... All 3 rattle like a “box of rocks”. Think AK47 reliability and M1/14 accuracy, just no “happy switch”. Just an op-handle.
 
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The rattle is common to the domestic 94s in the past four decades.
My Grandpa's 1951 94 has a tight lever, no loose play & no rattle.

I don't know when they developed it, but it's common today.
I would bench rest the gun at 100 yards (shooting off-hand tells you nothing about its intrinsic accuracy) to determine what shape it's really in.

If you can get 4 inches or under, with good ammo, it's good as it sits.
If it's running up around 6-8 inches, you might look at better sights, or do some barrel work.

Also understand that back during that era those receivers were a sintered metal process, not forged.
They are prone to rust, if you let 'em, and once they start pitting you can't just buff & reblue.
Denis
 
I've got two Angle Eject model 94's (.30-30 & .44 mag.) that are scoped...no idea the of age on either. I can't focus on iron sights anymore.

This is the .30-30 with a 24" barrel and an old Redfield 4X scope. From a bench rest it shoots 1" groups at 100 yards using Winchester 170 grain Power Point ammo. These rifles can be accurate enough!

400967694.jpg
 
I've got two Angle Eject model 94's (.30-30 & .44 mag.) that are scoped...no idea the of age on either. I can't focus on iron sights anymore.

This is the .30-30 with a 24" barrel and an old Redfield 4X scope. From a bench rest it shoots 1" groups at 100 yards using Winchester 170 grain Power Point ammo. These rifles can be accurate enough!

View attachment 795072

If you want to know go to the link I provided in my first post. Scroll down to 94's and look where your S/N falls. I'm thinking 80s.
 
I loaded a few 30-30 23.5 Grains of IMR4198, with a OAL of 2.521, cast 165GRN with a gas check on my Winchester, as well as my Marlin CB, and noted a muzzle velocity of just a hair under 2000fps and MOA, or slightly more, on the Marlin and right at 2 MOA or a little less with the Winchester. BTW the Winchester was made about the same time as yours 1979. The Marlin was made right around 2001 or so. Please note the Marlin has a 24" barrel, and the Winchester, I believe has a 20" barrel., however I'm not quite sure of that barrel length. Anyway, that Winchester does "rattle like a box of rocks".
 
My main concern is the "gunsmith" isn't qualified. It would take a ton of shooting to wear out Model 94 thats 40 years old. Mine was my grandfathers from 1928 and is well used but is fine and accurate. Take yours to the range and shoot it at 50ydas for function and accuracy. All my iron sight 30-30s (5) will group 3" or less at 100yds. The good loads around 1".
Scooter22, that is what I am going to do. Will have to see the accuracy for myself as you suggest.
Thanks Sir
 
I’ve got a ‘70’s mfg M94.
My older brother. An AirForce NCO, bought it off an airman going oversees in the early ‘80’s. ($75.00, more than the $50 a pawn shop offered...) He and my nephew shot it extensively with both jacketed and cast bullets. The latter, in 2lb coffee cans full, mostly loaded with 7.5gr of Unique. It’s been from Florida, to Alaska, Maine, Montana, back to Alabama and Georgia.
He killed the largest whitetail either of my brothers or I have killed, with it in ‘07. (200lb+ 10pt). 150gr Hornady RN over 33.5gr of H4895,got the last 10rds he ever loaded. I inherited it after he passed in ‘12.

It has always rattled like a “box of rocks”, but it’s under 2moa at 100yds with its Weaver SourDough reciever sight I gave him circa 1989. I haven’t touched the sights, but find it’s shoots all factory loads and most handloads at full-power loadings to +3” at 100yds. (That’s 3” high, not 3” groups!!!). Full power cast bullets (155-170gr) likewise. Mouse fart loads shoot to poa at ~25yds. It ain’t real “Perdy” but it’s all business. It’s lasted two generations. I expect, several more.

I’ve got two grand Daughters that’ll get to fight over it and my 1990’s XTR (beautiful rifle!!!) It likewise wears a sour-dough reciever sight.(angle eject). I mostly prefer Marlins, but do have three Winny’s... All 3 rattle like a “box of rocks”. Think AK47 reliability and M1/14 accuracy, just no “happy switch”. Just an op-handle.
Sure speaks to the durability of the gun. Congrats
 
The rattle is common to the domestic 94s in the past four decades.
My Grandpa's 1951 94 has a tight lever, no loose play & no rattle.

I don't know when they developed it, but it's common today.
I would bench rest the gun at 100 yards (shooting off-hand tells you nothing about its intrinsic accuracy) to determine what shape it's really in.

If you can get 4 inches or under, with good ammo, it's good as it sits.
If it's running up around 6-8 inches, you might look at better sights, or do some barrel work.

Also understand that back during that era those receivers were a sintered metal process, not forged.
They are prone to rust, if you let 'em, and once they start pitting you can't just buff & reblue.
Denis
Hello De
I've got two Angle Eject model 94's (.30-30 & .44 mag.) that are scoped...no idea the of age on either. I can't focus on iron sights anymore.

This is the .30-30 with a 24" barrel and an old Redfield 4X scope. From a bench rest it shoots 1" groups at 100 yards using Winchester 170 grain Power Point ammo. These rifles can be accurate enough!

View attachment 795072
Hello Denis
That is good info on the accuracy and also about the rusting!!! I am a bit obsessive about cleaning...
rhtwist
 
DUPLICATE
Hello Denis,
Those are good parameters for its accuracy. Also the tip about rusting although I am a bit obsessive about cleaning....
 
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I've got two Angle Eject model 94's (.30-30 & .44 mag.) that are scoped...no idea the of age on either. I can't focus on iron sights anymore.

This is the .30-30 with a 24" barrel and an old Redfield 4X scope. From a bench rest it shoots 1" groups at 100 yards using Winchester 170 grain Power Point ammo. These rifles can be accurate enough!

View attachment 795072
That is a very nice firearm Sir. Love the rifle! I may be putting a receiver sight on mine as my eye aren't what they once were...........
 
I loaded a few 30-30 23.5 Grains of IMR4198, with a OAL of 2.521, cast 165GRN with a gas check on my Winchester, as well as my Marlin CB, and noted a muzzle velocity of just a hair under 2000fps and MOA, or slightly more, on the Marlin and right at 2 MOA or a little less with the Winchester. BTW the Winchester was made about the same time as yours 1979. The Marlin was made right around 2001 or so. Please note the Marlin has a 24" barrel, and the Winchester, I believe has a 20" barrel., however I'm not quite sure of that barrel length. Anyway, that Winchester does "rattle like a box of rocks".
Well mine seems to be in the majority then... It is probably me, but I seem to have to grab the lever pretty tight to disengage the trigger safety. The lever doesn't have a pronounced flat spot for pushing the extension up. I have no real practice as of yet so time will tell
 
Thanks!

On this 94AE (picture below) I started with the factory sights then switched to a receiver sight. I liked the receiver sight but recently took it off and put a 2.5X Bushnell scope on it. It shoots 2" groups from bench rest with Winchester white box .44 mag 240 grain soft points...at 50 yards.

.44 mag Wrangler with 16" barrel.

336269241.jpg

Don't have a picture of it with scope.
 
Thanks!

On this 94AE (picture below) I started with the factory sights then switched to a receiver sight. I liked the receiver sight but recently took it off and put a 2.5X Bushnell scope on it. It shoots 2" groups from bench rest with Winchester white box .44 mag 240 grain soft points...at 50 yards.

.44 mag Wrangler with 16" barrel.

View attachment 795083

Don't have a picture of it with scope.

Hey C&L,
Another beauty! Since I believe I will be putting receiver sights on mine, thinking William 5D-94/33 Set with the fiber optic front sight, what is your opinion on it's benefit. Please all with experience please comment!
I am also pleased to see the number of AE fans, I was by age and upbringing, to lean toward the traditional top eject models.
 
That looks like mine but with a standard finger lever. They are compact, light and fun to shoot with lighter loads. Full power kicks and jumps a bit.. I gotta dig mine out and put some cast boolits through it. I'm gonna try powder coat on some. Suppose to work great. I don't want to hijack the thread but the info may be useful.
 
I would have thought that most would know when and why the excess rattle of the model 94 came to be.

The start of the excess rattle for a model 94 has to do with the cost cutting measures that Winchester introduced in 1964. It's also the beginning of what led to the eventual demise of Winchester as a US based company. Collectors, as a general rule do not want post 64 Winchesters as opposed pre 64 models and that applies to just about all Winchester rifles and shotguns produced from 64 to the early 1980's when USRA took over. This is also reflected in the prices quoted in the Blue book of used gun values.

The reason for the excess rattle of the post 64 models is due to the change in the way the receivers were manufactured. Up until 1964, the receivers for the model 94 were made from forged steel that was subsequently machined to exact tolerances. This machining required expensive skilled labor, which was a major part of the manufacturing costs. To reduce reduce these costs and to keep from having to raised the retail prices to cover, beginning in early 1964 Winchester changed to a new less expensive method where the receivers were cast from a powdered steel alloy under heat and pressure in a process called "sintering". The process is similar to how industrial ceramics are cast.

To eliminate all but some minor machining of the cast receiver, they had to reduce the tight tolerances for the internal components. Thus, the guns rattle more--even when closed. Most of the internals were still machined with the exception of the loading gate and the shell lifter. Those two items were changed from machined to stamped. In addition many of the pivot pins were changed from solid machined steel to rolled sheet steel. Another unpopular side effect to this new process was that the sintered steel alloy would not accept the standard hot bluing salts that Winchester had used since the 1930's. Their chemical supplier had to come up with a new formula and the results were inferior to the old finish. In addition, if the gun got used enough that the finish wore off in places, one could not have it reblued with the standard chemical that most gunsmiths would stock. Cold blue didn't work well either. At some point the revised bluing chemicals were made available to gunsmiths,
but every time Winchester would adjust the composition of the powdered alloy, they were back to square one for bluing.

At one point, they actually iron plated the receiver after it was cast, so it could be easily blued with regular salts. This caused an even more complicated issue down the road because of uneven wear of the bluing and/or the iron plating underneath.

Around 1981, after a long protracted union strike, Olin, the parent company, decided to get out the the firearms manufacturing business and only retain the ammunition side. Consequently, the union and the employees of Winchester got together, bought the New Haven plant, reformed under the name United States Repeating Arms, and secured the license to continue using the Winchester logo.

By this time, due to the advent of the economies afforded by CNC machining, the company was able to revert to precision forged and machined parts including the receiver, which in turn allowed them to go back to the tighter tolerances of the pre-64 models. Unfortunately by 1990 or so with failure of USRA and the take over of European owners, they also started adding the redundant lawyers safety stuff such as the rebounding hammer and then the fugly cross bolt safety. This was eventually relocated to the tang, which is less ugly, but at the same time it all but eliminated the ability to add a classic tang sight.

However, the Winchester 94's produced in that short time frame between 82 and 90 were some of the finest model 94 produced after WW II and some say even before.

Anyway, 1964 was the beginning of the excess rattle and 1982 should have been the end.

Here's an excellent blog article explaining all of this along with a timeline of the various changes the model 94 in particular went through from
1964 up through the end of the century.

http://tincanbandit.blogspot.com/2014/02/winchester-model-94-rifles.html

Cheers
 
Rattles a lot. It has a seen a lot of shooting according to gunsmith

rhtwist
I wouldn't worry too much about what the "gunsmith" said. Sounds like typical gunshop sales talk from a guy just wanting to sell you a new gun. A lot of the pushy or less reputable shops will often ridicule the gun you bring in trying to get you to buy or trade it in for the latest and greatest, only to knock that one in a couple of years... I've seen that happen in many shops, some that I worked in, though not by me...

Enjoy your rifle, I have one similar to it myself... Also just "rattled" a pre WWII 94 it has some rattle but not as much as my 70's 94... Nothing to worry about...
 
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Hello forward observer,
Thank you for that excellent explanation of the Model 94's timeline. Seems I missed the sweet spot by a few years. What a shame about it......
rhtwist
 
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