modern firearms at The Battle of Little Bighorn

Status
Not open for further replies.
So what kind of firearms could have turned the battle of little bighorn into a battle where at least a few soliders survive?

The M1873 Trapdoor Springfield, of course!

I say that because most of the soliders survived. The 7th Cavalry had 12 companies. Five of those companies were wiped out, and three others were roughly handled, but more than half the regiment survived.

The Battle of the Little Bighorn was not lost because of the weaponry involved, but because of the tactics. Custer, in modern terminology, failed to synchronize his attack -- with 12 companies of cavalry, he never got more than three of them into action at any one time. He was defeated in detail.
 
Some type of lever action or early bolt action would have given them some advantage, but nothing would take the place of practice and competence. Taking fire, while on horseback is not the place for the fine motor funtion required to load a simgle shot. I agree there was bad leadership. Ive been to the monument and that would have been a dark and lonley place to die.
 
While Gatling guns did provide a high volume of firepower, I don't believe that they would have made a difference at the battle. The gatlings of the time were mounted on wheeled carriages and drawn by horses... not very favorable to rapid deployment (or redeployment) in such a fluid battle as the Little Bighorn.

Most people who think the gatling gun would have helped seem to think the gatlings of that era were like modern machineguns. They weren't in that they did not have much grazing fire capability -- being chambered for the 50-70 cartridge.

I have challenged many advocates of the gatlings to assign them a mission at the Battle of the Little Bighorn. I have yet to find one who knows how to assign a mission to a machinegun.:p
 
Modern firearms?

Heck, even repeaters like the Indians had should have been enough to turn the tide if Custer had had an ounce of competence.

Just a few of Custer's mistakes:

Leaving his Gatling guns.
Splitting his forces.
Upon finding the Indian camp, and realizing that it was larger than anticipated, Custer sent for reinforcements, but attacked instead of waiting for them.
Once the Indians began to overwhelm the cavalrymen, the soldier's discipline and tactics fell apart. The lines broke and groups of men became isolated on hilltops. After Custer had fallen, one group of soldiers tried to retreat by marching through the bottom of a steep draw while taking fire from both sides.

Due to the tactical failures its officers, I doubt any weapons short of a tank could have saved the men of the 7th Cav.
 
I also don't think weapons had much, if anything, to do with it. Being stupid, being outnumbered, and having no respect for the enemy's numbers and competence had much more impact.
 
Please Mister Custer...

Custer did what he always did because it had always worked before.

The Indians did the last thing Custer expected.

Sorta like the Blackhawk Down Scenario...

LG Roy
 
It needed only one weapon, BRAINS. G.A. Custer was warned by his Crow scouts that he had to face at least 2000 Lakota, Chayenne, and other tribe's warriors. He didn't believe them.

He was too ambitious, even looking for the US Presidency and refused ANY means of support until it was too late. Custer wanted the "glory" just for himself, a new Andrew Jackson. He didn't like Reno, he didn't like Keogh, neither Reno or Keogh liked Custer, and Reno hated Keogh, and Keogh hated Reno, and hatred was all aroud the "officers".

In the end, it was a Phyrrus-Victory for the tribes because they were outnumbered by the whites 1:100,000 in the country and their last stand at Wounded Knee was the last chapter in supressing all of the tribes.

Life isn't fair, unfortunately.
 
Last edited:
Vern, you nailed it so well!

But there is a drawback to other suggestions about the Spencer. It had a shorter-range cartridge, compared to even the carbine load in the .45-70. A more arced trajectory means that range estimation is even more crucial and the chances of over- or under-shooting are greater. So, per shot, the Trapdoor carbine was better (oh, never mind the jamming and torn cases).

Bart Noir
 
Just a few of Custer's mistakes:

Leaving his Gatling guns.

As I said, no one I have ever spoken to who thinks the gatling guns would have made a difference has been able to assign those guns a mission. In fact, no one I've spoken to knows how to assign them a mission.

Splitting his forces.

No. "Splitting" his forces had worked well for him in the past. His failure was in synchronizing his attack -- different parts of his force got into action at widely different times.
Upon finding the Indian camp, and realizing that it was larger than anticipated, Custer sent for reinforcements, but attacked instead of waiting for them.

Modern students of the battle would disagree -- in fact, the failure to synchronize was due to waiting for reinforcements. Custer, with five companies failed to support Reno, and spent valuable time waiting for Benteen.
Once the Indians began to overwhelm the cavalrymen, the soldier's discipline and tactics fell apart. The lines broke and groups of men became isolated on hilltops. After Custer had fallen, one group of soldiers tried to retreat by marching through the bottom of a steep draw while taking fire from both sides.
This is based on a very controversial analysis which is based in turn on SLA Marshall's thoroughly discredited work. It is perfectly true that at some point a disaster can become sauve que pue, but the 7th held together very well for most of the fighting.

Due to the tactical failures its officers, I doubt any weapons short of a tank could have saved the men of the 7th Cav.

Very true.
 
George Custer was the youngest man breveted to general during the Civil War, and was known as a brilliant man.

As I recall didn't Custer graduate DEAD LAST at West Point? The 7th would have survived if someone other than Custer was leading them at Little Big Horn.

Dan
 
I wonder if shovels and 15 mintues worth of digging to devleop a defensive position might have been enough. formup a little better, ditch the horses, and make a somewhat defensible position and the whole battle changes. (particularly given the open ground involved)
 
I saw the Twilight Zone episode, where two or three NG folks joined in the battle - M1 carbine - maybe two, and a 1911. Somehow, they didn't think to bring their tank along, and subsequently got killed.

Custer needed some of those fully-automatic asssault revolvers.
 
I wonder if shovels and 15 mintues worth of digging to devleop a defensive position might have been enough. formup a little better, ditch the horses, and make a somewhat defensible position and the whole battle changes. (particularly given the open ground involved)

That's how the remaining companies of the regiment survived. They formed a perimeter on Reno's Ridge and scooped out fighting positions as best they could (lacking shovels, they used knifes, cups, tin plates and bare hands.)
 
In that twilight zone episode didnt they think about bringing the tank but then decided not to because it would change history too much.
 
The appropriate mission for heavy machine guns is sector defense across an assigned field of fire. I can't imagine that Custer, Benteen, and Reno, had they stayed together and had the Gatlings, could have managed to have drawn the Indians into a protracted fight against them.

Absolutely right -- but the gatlings of that era lacked a characteristic of modern machineguns -- extended grazing range.

Now, to assign a mission to the guns, you first must position them on the ground -- and explain how they get there. Then you must assign them sector limits, a Principal Direction of Fire (PDF) and a Final Protected Line (FPL). And finally, you must protect them from being taken in flank or rear.

Those are impossible tasks, given the limitations of the weapons and the tactical situation.
 
Glock 22 - I think the tank may've conked out on 'em - out of gas or something.

As for Gatlings, weren't they treated like field artillery for most of the 19th century? Maybe it was just the Franco-Prussian War-era French Army that did that.
 
Vern, your comments are correct. It has been over 3 1/2 years since I studdied Little Bighorn in depth, and my memory was playing tricks on me.

While Gatling guns could not have been deployed for much tactical value, they might have had some psycological value. Without large formations to focus the Galing's fire, they would have little effect on troop numbers, but the sound and fury of might have intimidated the Indians and forced them to be more cautious. At the same time they would boast the soldier's moral. Custer's decision to leave them behind may have been because he felt the terrain was not suited to their use, or because he thought he was facing only a minor threat.

Splitting your forces can lead to some stunning tactical maneuvers, but it is folly when you do not know the location, size, and composition of the enemy. Custer gave Reno orders to engage and hold before he was aware of the full situation. Also Custer little communication/obsevation with Reno's forces and therefore couldn't adjust the battle plan to take advantage of the changing situation.

Upon finding the Indian camp, and realizing that it was larger than anticipated, Custer sent for reinforcements, but attacked instead of waiting for them.
This is where my memory played tricks on me, the above statement isn't correct.
Instead his fault was issuing orders before he knew the situation, and ordering an attack before all his forces were in position.

This is based on a very controversial analysis which is based in turn on SLA Marshall's thoroughly discredited work. It is perfectly true that at some point a disaster can become sauve que pue, but the 7th held together very well for most of the fighting.
I have studied an archeological map of the battlefield that shows the location of the soldiers' bodies, as well as cartrige casings from the soldiers' and indians' weapons. This showed that while some of the Cav managed to mount an effective defense, there were several smaller elements that tried to fight a runing battle, others formed smaller pockets of defense but were overrun. No real effort was made (that I can see from the evidence) to relieve these smaller pockets, or consolidate forces.

I have a very low oppion of Custer and his officers from the way that this battle was fought, obviously it is much easier to "Armchair General", but there were so many errors that it is ridiculous.
 
Time, brains, time, Gatlings, time, sharshooters, time, wood & nails, TIME!!
Now obviously my ephasis is on time. If the 7th had had more time, they could have entrenched in a triangle formation One Gatling could have been placed in the middle of each side of the triangle. The reason I said wood and nails is because I think some sort of piot ot turret could have been built for the Gatling. Also, they could have made a palisade (wall of stakes). Call me heartless, but they could have slughtered the horses and used the for cover/food.The worse shots could have been placed on the outside of the entrenchment, and the better shots on the inside.
Also, lever-action carbines and the breech-loading artillery they had at Wounded Knee could have helped them.
 
I have studied an archeological map of the battlefield that shows the location of the soldiers' bodies, as well as cartrige casings from the soldiers' and indians' weapons. This showed that while some of the Cav managed to mount an effective defense, there were several smaller elements that tried to fight a runing battle, others formed smaller pockets of defense but were overrun. No real effort was made (that I can see from the evidence) to relieve these smaller pockets, or consolidate forces.

All of that is correct.

When Benteen reached Reno Ridge, a concentration occurred. When the pack train came up, that concentration was reinforced (the pack train, with its escorting company and mule-handling detatchments was about equal in strength to three companies.) This force, dug in as best they could and fighting defensively, was too hard a nut for the indians to crack, and they withdrew.

The evidence is that Custer even mishandled the five companies he kept under his control, and never got all of them into action at once.
 
I concur with those that believe 1873 Winchesters (maybe even Spencers, although less reliable and of lower power- he had used them effectively at the Battle of Yellow Tavern) would have made the difference.
Some other observations on issues raised by others:

Disclaimer: Not a Custer "fan", just an advocate of treating historical personages with the consideration I would like to receive myself.

IMO Graduating last in your class from West Point in 1861, the curriculum of which largely centered on mathmatics, engineering, and classical languages, probably required greater intelligence and self-discipline than being first in your class in most of today's four year institutions. :neener: Just graduating a college put you in the top 2% of the population.

A number of pretty sharp general officers of the era who worked with him, including Phil Kearny (Columbia U.), W'm. Smith (4th in his class), McClellan (2nd in his class), Alfred Pleasanton (7th in his class), Sherman (6th in his class), Sheridan (34th in his class), had a high regard for his abilities. He defeated J.E.B. Stuart, no slouch as a cavalry commander himself, at Yellow Tavern -ok, ok, so Sheridan had four brigades, of which Custer's was one vs Stuart's two- :cool: . [At the battle of Antietam, while Burnside (18th in his class) dithered over funneling his command across a single bridge, it was Custer that finally rode into the middle of the creek to show its depth.] Custer's rashness, audacity, fearlessness and a drive for glory served him well, and were characteristics generally admired by Americans in that era.

They led to friction in the drastically reduced postCW army where a man could languish in a rank for 20 years before promotion. He generally was not popular in frontier service, due in part to the perception that he had abandoned a Lt. Elliot and 19 men who became separated during action against Black Kettle of the Cheyenne and Kiowa at the Wa****a . (Interesting parallel with the Little Big Horn in that Custer refused to believe reports on the size of the Indian encampment here as well, but it was Elliot and his men that were cut off and rubbed out). [Perhaps he took the role of Elliot at the Big Horn in part to vindicate his action on the Wa****a. But in any event, he did not apply the lesson of that action, most likely he viewed it as an aberation.]

While his Congressional testimony about corruption in the Grant administration's Indian Bureau is seen by some historians as political opportunism, he also had a genuine concern for better treatment of reservation and treaty Indians which would benefit both Indians, pioneers and the military in frontier service.

Wish I remembered the details better, but a number of years (10-15) ago some group (USA War College?) gave the Little Bighorn to a number of army officers who were combat veterans as an exercise. They provided them with the context and the same orders and intell in the same sequence that Custer would have received them. IIRC these men made basically the same decisions that Custer had.

(How come a legitimate geographical place name gets asterisks in place of four letters right in the middle of it? You folks from Kansas should be insulted that they think you live in the vicinity of an obscenity. ;-) )
 
Last edited:
If it's a miracle Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry, point 4.5 caliber miracle.

And a bayonet Sir! With some guts behind it!

At least the Welshmen had bayonets.
Sort of sums up firepower management and mindset.

Modern firearm?
Well placed shots, or volley, from FAL's.

Was the fired cartridge/ejection problem as bad as has been reported over the years? Has current research brought any other views or facts?

I think Custers troops could have made do with what they had at the time.
Modern or period firearms, they should've stuck together, fought together, died together.
Was mentioned earlier about digging in. Maybe they should've dug in as best they could with whatever digging tools on hand and/or used dispatched horses for berms.

Good topic/question, comments and links!
 
That's like the old "How could Hitler have won WWII?" question. The answer is of course, by not being Hitler.

Similarly, Custer was impulsive and decided to fight with NO enemy intel at all. He HAD Gatling guns he didn't take. If he'd had a battery of M109s, he wouldn't have taken them either.

Sometimes stupidity is its own reward.
 
Whoever said Schoields instead of SAA's was right. Custer carried a Webley .422, and he was one of the last ones to die (I think).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top