Modern Handguns - +P or Not ?

[Hairy Clipper]

The R51 easily handles 9mm +P, and oddly enough the added impulse is completely damped out from the shooter's perspective by the unique action (it feels the same as standard, only louder, the few times I've ponied up to shoot the hot stuff)

TCB
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It is interesting you mention the R51. Remington? While I really want this pistol to come to market and function as one would expect a pistol should and be successful, given the blind accolades the gun writing community gave the first iteration I suspect the buying public would rather see a rental program that can be unilaterally cancelled at any time without novation.

There is a big difference between an individual that is not associated with a given company stating "easily handles" and a company's owners manual or other usage document saying "+P recommended".

 

[JohnBT]

"I personally would consider any handgun of modern manufacturer that would not handle +P ammo, in these chamberings at least, to be defective "

Why? A firearm marked 9mm or .45 ACP is made to shoot a widely sold standard chambering. There's nothing at all defective about a firearm made to shoot it.

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And that Buffalo Bore +P .40 on the Midway site comes with lots of warnings...aka weasel words...

"Most Glock 40 S&W do not have a fully supported chamber do not use this ammunition in Glock 40 S&W or other unsupported chamber pistols."

and

"there is such a variety of 40 S&W pistols in public use that we will not determine what pistols are compatible with which 40 S&W +P loads - this is your responsibility!"

 

[Hairy Clipper]

"I personally would consider any handgun of modern manufacturer that would not handle +P ammo, in these chamberings at least, to be defective and would not purchase it."

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Seriously?

So,tell me how a product made to utilize industry standard ammunition is defective. Your above statement reads like a product liability lawyer looking for work.

In the old days, when a cartridge had performance improvements that exceeded the standard pressure ratings of the cartridge it would be renamed and made an 1/8" longer to prevent someone from making a mistake and placing the higher pressure cartridge into a gun that was not designed for this so called "improvement". This has been noted many times in the gun journals here in North America. Whether it be .38 Special to .357 Magnum, .44 Special to .44 Magnum or more recently in in the .32 H&R Magnum to .327.

Given your statement, is it correct to then equate the handguns chambered in .38 Special, .44 Special and .32 H&R Magnum defective? I think not!

In the old days, the manufacturers were smart enough to know that, whether it be by accident or intent, the higher pressure loading would end up in a firearm that was not designed for that loading and make for a dangerous situation to exist! Today the higher pressure loads being marked with +p or +P+ or whatever the "my ammo is bigger than yours" nomenclature of the day is and does not provide the fail safe features that an eighth of an inch provided for those foolish enough to test fate.

 

[Jim Watson]

The difference from standard to +P pistol ammo is about 10% on chamber pressure.
If the powder is well chosen, you get about a 10% increase in muzzle energy. I think that is worth having in .38 Special which is a "Nitro for Black" cartridge to start with. 9mm and .45, no. Except for .38 Super for which +P is just a reinforcement of "Super" as an increase over .38 Auto, any other pistol ammo you see +P on is an overload of some degree.

Don't get me started on .257 Roberts +P, that one is just weird and I think most of what you read about it is nonsense.

 

[ATLDave]

Every time I see a thread about +P, it astonishes me how many people misunderstand what it is and what it is not.

 

[Shaq]

Not to hijack the thread, but why doesn't the .40s&w have a +p version?

The 40 S&W is already a high-pressure cartridge. No room for +P.

 

[ATLDave]

The 40 S&W is already a high-pressure cartridge. No room for +P.

.40 S&W standard pressure is the same as 9mm standard pressure. They are both "high pressure."
.

 

[mdauben]

"I personally would consider any handgun of modern manufacturer that would not handle +P ammo, in these chamberings at least, to be defective "

Why? A firearm marked 9mm or .45 ACP is made to shoot a widely sold standard chambering. There's nothing at all defective about a firearm made to shoot it.

And +P ammo is also a standard chambering (at least in 9mm, .38spl and .45ACP) and will fit in guns in those calibers. Plus P ammo is also widely used for personal defence loads. IMO it is a design flaw if any modern gun in 9mm, .38spl and .45ACP won't handle +P ammo. YMMV. [emoji6]

Given your statement, is it correct to then equate the handguns chambered in .38 Special, .44 Special and .32 H&R Magnum defective? I think not!

No, because the magnum rounds won't fit in those guns. SAAMI has standards for +P rounds in 9mm, .38spl and .45ACP. Those +P rounds will fit in the same guns. IMO it's a design flaw if a gun won't handle widely available and widely used ammo it's chambers for.

 

[Milt1]

I'm not a big fan of +P ammo. I will use in J frame sized guns chambered for 357 or K frame sized guns. My idea of a +P 38 is called a 357. My idea of a +P 9mm is a 357 SIG. If I need a +P 357, I'll use a 44 magnum. If I need bigger than that I use a rifle.

If you look at manufacturers charts of +P and +P+ ammo you don't see that much more expansion and 100-150 fps at most in velocity. I've chronographed a lot of +P loads and many times they are only 50-75 fps more. Thats a variation you can find testing loads in w identical guns.

I don't see that minimal extra velocity as a make or break edge. It's also harder on the gun.

Griz, I think you make a point and possibly people want to carry as much firepower as they can. However, there's a trade-off between firepower and ease of carry. For example I CC a Ruger LCR .38 (+P). From shooting +Ps is this revolver I know that I couldn't handle the .357 LCR due to excessive recoil, the +Ps are bad enough but I shoot my reloads in it every week so I'm not concerned about an encounter and it being stuffed with +P. My LCR is a delight to carry so it's a trade-off between ease of carry (will still bite you hard with the +Ps) and extreme recoil if it was the .357 version.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a note on the 9mm and +P, usually to increase the velocities without pushing the pressures too high they lighten the bullet. Instead of beating up the gun and shooter why not just use a heavies bullet for the same results.

I like the 124gr standard pressure Gold Dot load. I like using the bullet weight used when the cartridge was developed. That's why I like 158gr .38/357 loads. (although the 145gr Silvertip ammo is great lol)

 

[ATLDave]

"Just a note on the 9mm and +P, usually to increase the velocities without pushing the pressures too high they lighten the bullet."

???? The definition of +P - the WHOLE definition - is that pressures are higher (within a specified additional amount). There are +P rounds with heavy-for-caliber bullets.

 

[eldon519]

Yeah there are 124 and even 147 +P out there. Not sure where you're going with the lighter bullet thing.