Molon what?

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I remember reading the scholarly arguments in things like the Journal of Hellenic Studies. Some scholars went on to prove how logistically it would be difficult for Xerxes to support a 1,000,000 man army (and their animals) even with a fleet of over 1,000 ships (remember not all ships were men of war and many were transports to carry food). We really don't know how huge the Persian Host was (and was Herodotus including noncombatant camp followers like servants, slaves, wagonneers, armorers, clerks, religious men, animal keepers, etc? to inflate the #?). Still, it was a huge army and enough for the Peloponnesians to advocate for the evacuation of Attica and defending the narrow area around Corinth (not really feasible if the Persian Navy manage to get around the combined Greek fleet).
 
I'll try and hook up with a couple AG scholars and get some sources from them over the next few days. (It turns out I know some very distinguished scholars and didn't even know it.) It may be a snipe hunt, but this is something I should have pursued to the end years ago, and the rekindling is just making me itch.

Mr. Clark,

I'm told that the Loeb Classics publishing house is most likely to have the closest thing to a reliable page-for-page translation. Their books are one side English, the other side Greek (the ancient Greek, not modern) or Latin depending on the author. Then again, I suppose that's like saying today's Bible is a reliable "verbatim translation" from the Hebrew (howzat for a contradiction in terms?). The Oxford Classics are even more precise, but they are published in ancient Greek only.
 
umofo and others :(

My sincerest apologies for any wasted time and effort.
My CD-ROM did indeed use sloppy citations, as I can't seem to find anything in "Lives". However, the CD-ROM wasn't totally useless ---its cite points to Apophthegmata Laconica before it mentions Lives. Perhaps there was some subconscious reason why I omitted citing Lives in my initial post, since it seems you would find the Apophthegmata Laconica in Plutarch's "Morals":


"MORALIA" by Plutarch
Apophthegmata Laconica should be in volume 3
(the Loeb Classical Library publication, ISBN 99270-9)

or

"APOPHTHEGMATA GRAECA REGUM" by Henri Estienne 1568
A collection of Greek anecdotes, drawn from Plutarch and Diogenes Laetius. Plutarch's texts include the Regum et imperatorum apophthegmata, Apophthegmata Laconica, Instituta Laconica, and Lacaenarum apophthegmata.


Once again, my sincerest apologies for misleading.

:( :( :(
horge
 
No biggie, Horge. I've got a couple feelers out to different guys, and expect to get an answer by maybe M or Tu. I couldn't find my wife's copies if I tried, anyway. They're buried somewheres with all the other books. :)
 
from TFL:

"Old and New Thermopylae", by George A. Magazis, published by Elias Kabanas, Inc. in Athens Greece. Their mailing address WAS: 66 Paparrigopoulou Street, 121 33 Peristeri, Athens Greece. It's written in modern English, and has some excellent photos of Spartan artifacts and various artwork.
 
If somebody failed to mention it already, the original SOURCE for Molon Labe is Herodotus. That is where the original write-up on the 300 Spartans appeared. No, Herodotus never heard of the Internet. :scrutiny:

HERODOTUS
 
A contemplative Good Friday to all.
May we treasure the Redemption
that Christ's compassionate sacrifice has bought for us.


----

I believe neither Herodotus nor Thucydides mention

"molon labe"


While Plutarch (a Greek living in Roman times) may have been several centuries removed from the events at Thermopylae, we can assume that a heck of a lot more that neither Herodotus nor Thucydides set into writing about the battle was preserved as oral tradition, and perhaps Plutarch recorded an unembellished (or even unfabricated) bit of such.

Neither Herodotus nor Thucydides were eyewitnesses, and relied on local rumor and probably a few partial witnesses. Plutarch, already rendered remote by the march of time since Thermopylae, is further weakened by repeated, provable error and outright fabrication with his fawning 'comparisons' of the Romans to the mighty Greeks of old.

Neither Herodotus nor Thucydides were themselves proof from severe error, and could resort to outright invention when providing detail. Herodotus offers a bogus explanation for Xerxes' elite troops being called "Immortals" ---that there was always an instant replacement for any who fell in battle-- when Herodotus actually confused the similar Persian words 'Companion' and 'Immortal'. Xerxes' elite troops were literally his companions everywhere.

Did Herodotus make up that bit about Dienekes waxing with such shade-loving wit?
Not likely. Herodotus to me seems all too inclined to expand the bravery and brilliance of Athens at the expense of Sparta. (Thucydides was another proud Athenian.)

Now, if Dienekes could be so (there's no other way to put it) laconic, and if laconism is to be taken as a 'national characteristic' of the Lakonians (or Lakedaimonians, or Spartans if you like) ...then why couldn't a King among them possess laconic wit of kingly proportions?

I believe Leonidas uttered those defiant words.
If not, then what matter?
His unyielding defiance is immortal prose
spoken in the plain language of deeds.


Though Spartan culture was everything WE would summon the courage to fight,
It is courage to fight that we honor, when we remember Thermopylae.



horge



----------
Having subdued all of the other major Greek city-states, Philip II of Makedonia turned his attention to Lakedaimon, home of the obstinate Spartans, and sent to them thus: "Submit immediately, for if I bring my armies into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city." Sparta's Ephors sent the curt reply: "If."...and Philip exercised the better part of prudence.
 
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In response to my question, where is the ancient literary source and whom (?) is the historian responsible for citing the quote, my friend wrote back and verbatim, this is the text of his message:

<<<
The phrase "molon labe" comes from Plutarch's Moralia, "Sayings of
Spartans" (Apophthegmata Laconica), under Leonidas (reference is Mor.
225D). "Labe" is the imperative from "lambanO," take, and "molOn"
(second O is omega) is an aorist participle from the verb
blOskO/moloumai/emolon, to come or to go, so literally: coming, take!

Anyway, Plutarch found that somewhere attributed to Leonidas.

The other saying ("Then we'll fight in the shade") comes from Herodotus 7.226, attributed to Dienekes the Spartan (that doesn't seem to be in Plutarch's collection of sayings).

I've seen the phrase "molon labe" quoted online, not necessarily in
connection with gun rights... I suspect some of those 19th-century
Southern gentlemen who liked to read ancient history had come across
it... There were comparisons made between Thermopylae and the Alamo
within days of the fall of the Alamo, but don't know if anybody quoted
"molon labe" at that time... Another time the phrase might have been
used would have been the Civil War.

>>>

If the analysis of the Greek grammer makes sense to ya'll, more power to you. My friend forgets that he's talking to a former auto painter, and not my wife, who's the in-house Ancients scholar. Horge, it looks like you were 'way mo' closer than you thought.:cool: I suppose the conclusion is that this documented quote, having been cited centuries (?) after the actual battle, is an indication that someone's (Plutarch's at least the first author) imagination may have embellished the incident into an even better tale.

I'll try to find out about the logistics and force of numbers.
 
Okay, very interesting thread, (I love this place:D ).

Question: What is the correct way to say these two greek words in modern "flyover country" english?? It appears there are at least two takes on this and I am wondering if the resident experts can help us out. I just got hats from Larry, and I'd like to be able to pronounce the words properly if possible :D
 
The small o (omicron, the first one) as in "poke"
The big O (omega, the second one) as in "gosh"
The a as in father
the e is pretty short, maybe like the e in peg but more indistinct

All of the consonants are pretty much like American English.
(In modern Greek beta is pronounced as a v, but this was not the case in Classical Greek.)

Ancient Greek did not stress accents to the extent that we do; they had tonal inflections instead. However, those are so strange to our ears that (last I checked) most American classical scholars don't even try to reproduce the pitch inflections. However, I would incline to stress the second syllable of molOn slightly more than the first, and the first syllable of labe much more than the second.

Caveat: I did study pronunciation of ancient Greek when I was in college, but that was some time ago! Anyone who has more recent information on scholarly studies of pronunctiation, or who has scholarly information on the Spartan regional pronunciation, is welcome to correct the above. Anyone who is curious about the science of reconstructing ancient pronunciation (yes it is a science) might want to look at Sturtevant's Pronunciation of Greek and Latin or Allen's Vox Graeca (both still in print).
 
Mal - I ran through an Internet version of Herodotus and couldn't come up with it either. I did see Dienekes quip about fighting in the shade. That was in Book 7.

Somewhere in my extensive reading of history I came across it, probably Plutarch as some suggested. Sorry about the faulty info. :eek:

Many ancient works, like the Bible, Homer, etc. were accompanied by an oral tradition for in those days books were very expensive and literacy may not have been universal. Emphasis was on memorization of long passages from the great works. There was not a lot of electronic entertainment so they told each other stories to pass the time. I think we've largely lost that, however I enjoy our little BS sessions right here on THR.
 
Two million men is an impressive number when taking into account this (Persian invasion force) is fifteen times greater than the total number that served the vast and powerful Roman Empire during the Pax Romana (essentially Rome's golden age).
During the rule of Augustus, it is believed Rome had at its disposal 28 legions (an estimated 150,000 legionnaires) during their most prosperous years. However, in all fairness it is also believed Emperor Diocletian may have had 60 legions serving the Roman war machine.

So, I can't help but find the "2 million" estimate a little steep, but I could be wrong....


Still an inspirational story nonetheless.
 
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