Mon Fusil "Lebel" 1886/93

[Cosmoline]

I've been after one of these for the past year, but finally managed to win an auction for an early production 1886/93. This one is from the old Chatellerault arsenal and is all matching. It's got a nice patina and reasonably good rifling considering the age.

I'm working up 8x50R handloads for it using conservative data for IMR 3031 and 4064 based on Krag .30-40 data. The data in Cartridges of the World looks far too hot to me. I'm also running an initial batch of Trail Boss loads through just to check function and for grossly out of spec headspace. Though by the look of it someone had been shooting it not too long ago and neglected to clean it out.

I haven't done a complete tear-down of it yet, but my initial impressions are good. It's surprisingly light in the hand for such a long piece. It balances quite well. The loading system is sluggish but nicely simple for a tube mag. It doesn't have any of the complex levers or springs in a contemporary design like a Winchester lever gun. The elevator is one-piece and is sprung up by a simple leverage action when the bolt is pulled back. Crude but effective.

There is no safety, though the mag cutoff does function as a means of preventing rounds from feeding from the tube. It also makes it very simple to convert into a Gras-type single shot for pointed bullets. I have read that the designers intended the magazine to be a walking reserve of rounds, and the Lebel would ordinarily be kept in single shot mode until the order was given to open the magazine.

The sights are indeed unusual as I had heard. But I think there are really two in one. The main sights are incredibly fine, with a very very thin front sight sitting in a very very small "V" notch. There are also what I assume were supposed to be battle sights, a notch higher. These are a simple and large block that fits into a large square notch. I suspect this is what they used most of the time. It would print bullets high, but in the aim-for-the-gut tradition that would be fine.

Compared with an 1898 G Mauser or SMLE, the piece is slower to feed from the magazine. You have to reach way down in there with your finger. The bolt handle is further out than a Mosin, and is difficult to work without bringing the rifle down. Also the elevator does not hold the round fast--it sits in there loose on the way up. So it can toss rounds out if worked too vigorously. This would make rapid fire very difficult or impossible.

But I can see what the "les poilus" loved about these rifles. They're tough and reliable for a tube feeder, and the longevity of this one is a good testament to their sound construction. With the long bayonet fixed, they'd make fearsome spears. The simple feeding mechanism would be reasonably resistant to dirt and muck from the trenches. It certainly performed well enough, and stopped the Germans for all those years at Verdun.

And, going back to the 1880's, it's easy to see what scared everyone so much and made Bismark afraid of invading France until the Germans could catch up. This old thing was the Sputnik of its day, and shocked the whole world. The revolution it created is still in effect today, and this rifle is the great grandfather or at least cousin of every smokeless rifle.

I'll post a range report after tomorrow's run.

PS--if you want one of these guys, esp. the original runs that were not converted into the carbine or the later "M" balle, you should move now. The auctions are very active for 1886 lebels right now. I lost about a dozen of them before snagging this one. The prices are going up. I think the upcoming WWI centenary may be having an impact.

 

[Roadkill]

I've got a similar one but don't know much about it. Looks good hanging on the wall anyway.

 

[Slamfire]

So, did you get the epee bayonet?

 

[Cosmoline]

I think that one is an MAS, isn't it?

So, did you get the epee bayonet?

That's on the list! Though the early ones are also going for a surprisingly pretty penny now. It's so long with that bayonet you could pretty much just shove forward and put a hole in the target.

And when you look at that odd sling arrangement on the Lebel 86, add the long long bayonet, you can see how high those rifles would have stood up on marches. For miles away the Germans could have seen those ranks of shining bayonets. Made it easier for artillery, to be sure. And there was a Lebel for sale a bit ago that had an 8mm hole bored right into the side of the top of the barrel. Almost as if a machine gunner had nailed it at long range while firing on advancing Frenchmen. The Mauser bullet was still in the barrel!

The ensemble speaks to a very different era in warfare, when generals WANTED their troops to be seen marching into position in battle. They wanted the gleam of bayonets to scare the other guys. What impresses me reading about WWI is how well the French managed to fight in spite of their inadequate planning, inferior equipment and pretty dismal and political gerneral officer corps. They dished out some horrific casualties on the German forces year after year. Attention tends to be drawn to the great mutiny later in the war or on the horrible second world war performance, but the fact is these guys managed to hold their own for years against a better armed, better led and better organized foe. Time and again they rallied and held back seemingly inevitable German victory, usually inspired by the actions of a few lower-level officers. We only came in at the very end of that game and our main contribution was what we meant for 1919, not what we did in 1918. The Germans simply had nothing to counter the influx of Americans with, so they folded. Not to take away from the sacrifice of our own soldiers and Marines, but the French at Verdun alone lost 363,000 KIA and inflicted nearly as many German deaths holding the salient in 1916. That's an incredible level of bravery. To live and fight in ground so full of death that it's essentially one huge human corpse filled with your comrades and the foe. To this day you can walk around any number of Great War battlefields and see human bones sticking up out of the ground. There's simply too much to ever recover all of it.

It's truly humbling to think this rifle was almost certainly used in that war, and may well have been held by someone in front line service.

 

[Roadkill]

I think that one is an MAS, isn't it?

This is it - St. Etienne 1916 8 MM Lebel - fourth from the right on the wall

 

[Cosmoline]

Oh, the Berthier. That's on my list to get. Hard to find the clips for them though. Some Black American troops used a variation of those after being seconded to the French.

 

[Ian]

The more I see of French weapons, the more interested I am in them. I recently picked up a trio of nice pieces - an 1886/93 Lebel (also a Chatellerault, with a great bore and bayonet), a 1907/15 Berthier (3-round mag, and all matching), and a MAS 36/51 (the grenade launching variant). I really want to get a couple of the Berthier carbine variants now.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well it took me a bit longer than anticipated to finally get the loads together and give the '86 a test run.

Cleaning all the copper out took hours of work. I don't think anyone had given the bore a good cleaning in ages. After that I knocked a soft lead ball into the bore with a wooden hammer and tapped it through. The bore is about .327" between the grooves, which isn't unusual for the old Lebels according to other reports on line.

I loaded with the CCI M34's that are my standards for any military arm with a hard-hitting hammer. And judging from the protrusion on the Lebel's pin, a soft primer might well be pierced. You can't adjust the protrustion, either.

I used a mix of jacketed and cast bullets. I started with the cast so the bore would be relatively copper free. I used Hunters Supply cast .322 and .324 with 12 grains Trail Boss under. I expected these to be good plinkers. I was WRONG. Most of them keyholed at 25 yards. So much for cast bullets in this thing.

I then went to 198 Biem SPP's over the same load of Trail Boss. These were right on the bull at 25 and had a nice 2" group. Not a bad short range plinker round.

Confident that the rifle was physically sound and seeing no problems with primers or pressure, I went up to the rifle powder loads. I went with moderate loads of IMR 3031 and IMR 4064. The hottest load I ran was 198 grain Biems over 42 Grains of 3031, which is still a notch under the Catridges of the World load. That's as hot as I would push this rifle, frankly. Recoil at that level was stiff. But accuracy was quite acceptable. I found the rifle shooting about 6" over the bull at 25 yards with that load. Lowered to 40 grains the recoil was less intense and the group about one inch lower. With 40 grains IMR 4064 it was 4" high. All were about 1 1/2" inch at that range. Not really driving tacks but keep in mind the .323" bullets are all undersized for this bore. If someone made a jacketed .326" or so for these Lebels you could probably shoot some very impressive groups.

The rifle is crude, for sure. Feeding from the magazine works OK but tends to toss rounds around a lot. It's primitive, but reliable. I mostly used single shot mode and I expect that's what I'll stick with esp. since cast rounds are not a favorite of this old battle beast.

The sights are weird, there's no getting around that. But I found that I could drop the bull down into the rear sight and depress the front sight so it was just barely peeking up. That keeps the shots on paper at close range, anyway. Either that or you can put a marker down at gut-level on your 100 meter target.

More testing TBD when I get some more brass and bullets in. I'm going to check Graf & Sons.

On ne passe pas!

 

[barman]

It's truly humbling to think this rifle was almost certainly used in that war, and may well have been held by someone in front line service.

Sorry to revive this old thread.
First I want to congratulate you for that fine rifle. A great piece of History it is.

Second, nearly every French soldier still alive in 1916 did fight in Verdun: the battle was so horrific that General Pétain had devised a strategy involving a constant turn-over of troops so that morale could be kept at an "acceptable" level. Units would spend 2 weeks over there and then be sent to another area, so that fresh (non-traumatized) troops could replace them. The entire French army thus went through the Verdun hell-hole during the 9 months it lasted.

The probability that your rifle was there is therefore extremely high.


My personal favourite French WW1 piece is an Mle1892 revolver with visible shrapnel marks, but otherwise in perfect working condition. I've always wondered the history behind it and which officer used to carry it, and whether he survived or not.

 

[Big Al Mass]

I love your rifle. I hope to add one to my collection when I start collecting rifles. There is an old family photo of my grandmother when she lived in Greece (I think it was taken just after WWII) and slung over her shoulder is a Lebel just like yours. I wish I could find it so I can scan and post it.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well I have to ask--what was your grandmother doing with a Lebel in Greece? There must be a story there.

Barman, it looks like Graf & Sons is now carrying some of the basic 8mm lebel revolver rounds so I am seriously thinking about getting one. There are some very minty examples for sale. I'm thinking it must be about Nagant strength.

 

[barman]

I never held a Nagant so I wouldn't be able to tell.

I really like the Mle1892 revolver though. It's quirky like most French designs (the cylinder swings out to the right as it was originally made to be used by cavalry officers, and the sword was their primary weapon so they would shoot the revolver with their left hand) but it's also extremely well-made and very accurate, the workmanship was incredible on these. They work as well as Swiss clocks.

The cartridge is pretty weak but it was reasonable enough for its purpose, I guess. That gun originally shot black powder ammunition, but smokeless rounds replaced the BP cartridges at the turn of the 20th century.
In 1914, Non-commissioned officers and the Foreign Legion still had the old 11mm Mle1873 revolvers, which I also love.

Regarding the Greeks and Lebels, large quantities of these rifles were issued to them by the French government in 1917 and 1918, as Greece was on the Allies' side in WW1, fighting the Turks.

 

[Big Al Mass]

There was a civil war going on at the time between the legitimate government and the communists trying to overthrow it.

 

[Cosmoline]

Ah yes, I seem to remember reading about that.

I had the Lebel standing next to my flintlock poor boy the other day when cleaning out the rifle box. It's mind-blowing to remember that the flinter rifle in .40 would have been state of the art in 1816, and within a single lifetime technology had reached the prototype for all modern small arms. The technology gap between the Lebel and the AR-15 is much, much smaller. The AR is a permutation on the basic principles of smokeless powder, brass centerfire cartridge, gilding metal instead of lube, breach loading, long small caliber bullet, magazine feeding and of course interchangeable parts. All of which were perfected between 1816 and 1886 and which came together first with the old Lebel.

 

[snakeman]

And here I am thinking my mosin is cool...

 

[Cosmoline]

For a shooting rifle, the Mosins are better. The Lebel has a foot in two worlds. The round was revolutionary but the design was still very much part of the 1880's. So the magazine acted more like reserve storage. Feeding is a clunky procedure since the rounds are loose on the elevator. But on the plus side there's very little that can go wrong with it.

 

[Big Al Mass]

I have read in a few places that the Lebel can hold a maximum of 10 rounds, 8 in the magazine, one in the lifter, and one in the chamber. Have you ever tried this?

 

[infmp32]

I got to shoot a Lebel over the weekend. My buddy only had a box of ammo, and there was about 8 of us shooting, so I only got to shoot 2 rounds through it but man what fun!

 

[Cosmoline]

I have read in a few places that the Lebel can hold a maximum of 10 rounds, 8 in the magazine, one in the lifter, and one in the chamber. Have you ever tried this?

I don't know about the one on the elevator. But 8+1 was standard I believe. The 8 being primarily a reserve supply while the soldiers loaded it single-shot style. I suspect that part of the manual of arms was tossed into the mud by 1915 along with the bright Zouave uniforms.