Moonclips for .38 Special revolvers?

[Malamute]

"Most of the revolver cartridges we have today are based on black-powder rounds with capacities to match. We need revolver fodder that is the same length as similar stuff used in autoloaders."


I would respectfully disagree with that conclusion, the 38 spl, 357, 41 mag, 44 spl, 44 mag were not black powder rounds, and are sized appropriately for the load. A shorter case in any of them would raise pressures for a similar performing load, tho that may not be an issue for some people.

Smith does make some revolvers in auto pistol calibers, the 40 S&W and 10mm. They don't interest me, as you are limited to moon clips to get them to extract, and they are less powerful than comparable sized revolver rounds. They might be attractive to those that have other guns in those calibers.I think our current revolver cartridges are very good at what they do.

 

[Old Fuff]

The .38 Special and .44 Special were both originally loaded with black powder. They're Magnum counterparts, the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum have slightly lengthened cases to prevent accidental loading into older revolvers. The .41 is indeed a stand-alone Magnum, but the same length as the others.

This thread is about modifying double-action revolvers to use moonclips with conventional rimmed cartridges. I observed that there could be a problem getting enough clearance between the left grip and cylinder to accommodate long cartridges in a speed-loader, and to a lesser degree, moonclips.

In most revolvers, particularly the Magnums, the extractor is long enough to extract the fired cases and/or unfired cartridges, but not fully ejects them. Using current gunpowders one can obtain Magnum performance in a revolver while using less propellant. A number of advantages might be realized if the cases and/or cartridges were shortened.

Perhaps I should have explained that if my proposed shorter cartridges should come along they would be new ones, and not necessarily replace the current Magnums.

For an example in another context, compare the .45 ACP vs. .45 Glock.

 

[BluesBear]

One advantage when using moonclips for the magnum length cartridges is that they all eject as a single unit.

Another problem when using moonclips for the magnum length cartridges is that they all eject as a single unit.



Not all guns actually have an long enough extractor stoke to completely eject the empty cases. Since they all eject at once, grip clearance becomes an issue once again.




Personally I'll stick to speedloaders. After 30 years I've become a bit more than adequate with them.

 

[Malamute]

Fuff, I stand corrected. My memory is good, but not long.

I looked up the 44 spl in the cartridges of the world, and they mentioned that the 44 spl was originally loaded with black, but was more efficient with the new smokeless than the older 44 Russian. I guess that part is what stuck in my mind. They didn't say about the 38 spl and black, but I would not be surprised, since it was in the same time period. I've just haven't heard of it being loaded with black.

I have seen problems with shell rims or loaders contacting the older factory grips, but I tend to clearance my grip panels (factory target grips). Smith was getting better about it before they went to synthetic grips. The synthetic grips I have seen looked like they should clear shells or loaders, but I have little experience with the new grips used.

I've had no trouble with getting empties to clear, but I turn the gun straight up and strike the extractor rod sharply, and have not had any problem with cases sticking, or with powder buildup under the extractor. Some other techniques may have trouble with cases sticking.

I know a couple of guys that have 40 S&W cal DA revolvers, and they like them, but they seem to shoot their 38's and 44's more. I don't know what significance that has, if any, just an observation.

I've had a couple of Smith DA's in 45 auto cal, but prefered the model 29. another observation, but not sure how significant, other than I like the 29's, the 44 mag cartridge, and the power and flexibilty of it.

Just my .02, and as somebody said, easily worth double what you paid for it.

BB,
There are several different extractor springs that Smith uses, the regular. standard spring has the longest stroke. If a gun's extractor rod does not go in til the knurling touches the yoke, it may have one of the alternate springs in it. There is a "California Hwy Patrol" spring that limits the extractor stroke, and an "FBI" spring, that also limits the stroke. The theory behind the other springs is that they were specified by those agencies because of concerns of getting a shell under the extractor star, tho I have never had it happen in any of my K frame 357's or N frame 44's or 357's. I can't get a shell under the star on them when I try.

Mooonclips would of course eliminate any chance of a shell getting under the star, but I've never seen it happen.

The older 45 Colt Smiths tended to have a bit larger chambers, and a very narrow rim on the shell, it was possible to get a shell under the star if not ejecting briskly.

 

[Old Fuff]

The original .38 Special cartridge was loaded with 21 1/2 grains of black powder and a 158-grain lead bullet. It was introduced in 1899, and intended to outperform the .38 Long Colt (18 grains of black powder and 150-grain lead bullet).

Your technique works fine for unloading a revolver. The problem comes when people point the muzzle down and then push on the ejector rod.

The .44 Magnum is a fine cartridge, but the performance could be duplicated in a shorter length case. The longer length is to prevent it from being accidentally chambered into an old .44 Special, not because the extra powder capacity was necessary, although that length allows the use of some slower burning powders that will give the highest velocities at lowest (relative) pressure.

So far as loading from a speed-loader is concerned, the best revolver I have for that purpose is an old S&W 1905 Hand Ejector/Military & Police .38 with a Pachmayr grip adapter and the old-style pre-war grips. This combination works fine with .38 Special's but it woud be VERY unconfortable with any Magnum load. You can cut a substantial clearance in the left grip, but it looks ugly to say the least. Most of those that use mooncliped revolvers are combat game competitors, and for they're purpose clips can't be beat. As for the rest of us, I'm not so sure.

 

[Malamute]

"The original .38 Special cartridge was loaded with 21 1/2 grains of black powder and a 158-grain lead bullet."

I'm sure glad I didn't know that years ago, I would've been loading them with black. I used to shoot black in my Colt SAA 44 spl. I don't miss the case cleaning. The guns aren't that hard to clean with just hot water.

I concur with your appraisal of the average guy and moonclips. I'm happy with Safariland loaders.

I reckon I've just gotten used to looking at the clearance cut in my grips.

I had some grips similar to your early HE's on a 1917. They did get a bit uncomfortable if I shot it many rounds at a time.

 

[BluesBear]

The older 45 Colt Smiths tended to have a bit larger chambers, and a very narrow rim on the shell, it was possible to get a shell under the star if not ejecting briskly.

AMEN to that. I've even seen it done with a 25-5.

The revolver I learned to shoot with was my grandfathers old Colt 1892 Navy.
Those old Colts had a long extractor throw.
Even with .38 Special ammo it was easy to get a case past the star if you ejected with the muzzle down or even level like shown in the Colt advertisments. When using .38 Long Colt ammo, getting a round past the star was almost guaranteed.

That's how and why I learned at a young age to ALWAYS point muzzle up when unloading a revolver. For one thing, if you have any unfired rounds they will fall right into your hand and then you can dump the fired cases with no danger of any getting caught.

Even with H&R 999 I have to watch out. Every so often the cylinder will try to eat an empty case. You have to open it rather smartly in order to get all nine cases a running start. if you open is slowly with the muzzle down, as most newbies do, a couple will get caught.
And let me tell you, since it has no manual ejector rod, getting that star up and out of the way, so you can pry one of those little buggers out of the chamber, takes more hands than I was issued.

I have also fired a lot of .45 Auto Rim. That stuff is extremely easy to slip past the star if you're not careful. Luckily ACP in half moon clips solves that problem. But in the 1960s 45 Auto Rim ammo was actually cheaper than commercial ACP.
When I first started shooting I wondered why the 1917 revolvers had such long extractors until my Father explained that #1) they were using as many off the shelf parts as possible and #2) in combat, with clips, that long rod guaranteed that the empties were GONE. Which in combat is a very good thing.


As I recall the original blackpowder load for the .38 Special was 21 grs as opposed to the .38 Long Colts 18grs. Both with 150gr bullets.

Regarding case capacity. Don't forget that the 9mm can outdo the standard pressure .38 special with the same weight bullet.

Does anyone else remember the ill-fated and thankfully short-lived 9mm Federal? In essence it was a 9mm auto rim. Albeit with a stardard rim.
The problem was it would drop right into a .38S&W chamber.
If someone fired a 9mm Federal in an old hinged frame black powder .38S&W it would try to impersonate a hand grenade. The problem is there would be no delay fuse. So in that case it would become an anti-hand grenade.
With several million of those old breaktops still floating around you have to wonder What in the Hell was Federal thinking?