Moral dilemma on very collectable firearm...
- Thread starter redneck2
- Start date
- Status
Perhaps the real question redneck2 wants to hear is: Is this guy's friendship worth $25K to you?
I'm not sure how guilty I'd feel about removing a collector's item from a gun-abuser. Still, he should get at least half should he sell it to you with a misguided expectation of it value.
If he's a really good friend and not just some guy from work, you probably owe it to him to to tell him.
I'm not sure how guilty I'd feel about removing a collector's item from a gun-abuser. Still, he should get at least half should he sell it to you with a misguided expectation of it value.
If he's a really good friend and not just some guy from work, you probably owe it to him to to tell him.
synoptic
Member
I think Samualt has the right idea. Buy it for yourself, it's alright, buy it with hopes to sell, crossing the line
LoneStranger
Member
Various members of my family are involved in buying and selling junk, read antiques, and other items. When we come across this style of situation, large dollars and friendship involved, the procedure is to inform other that you think you can sell something that he has. Then you ask whether he will split with you if you can sell. Usually results in a base price with split of amount over that base.
Yes, one should be sharp but not to the point of inflicting a fatal wound.
Yes, one should be sharp but not to the point of inflicting a fatal wound.
Powderman
Member
There is only one answer, and you know what it is.
My father told me once, "The only thing you have that is truly your own is your integrity. It is yours to do with as you will. No one can take it from you; you have to give it away. But if you give it away, you can never get it back."
How much is your integrity worth, my friend?
My father told me once, "The only thing you have that is truly your own is your integrity. It is yours to do with as you will. No one can take it from you; you have to give it away. But if you give it away, you can never get it back."
How much is your integrity worth, my friend?
OP
OP
redneck2
Member
Geez....I dunno.....
I just talked to one of the other guys he works with. Said he wants to sell it for $700
Scary part is he was "going home to clean it up". That may well mean steel wool and a home re-blue at the kitchen table.
So how much is integrity worth??? Twenty grand pushes it pretty hard. Like I said, he's just an acquaintance...not family, nor even a friend.
I'll take the above advice about Singer making the slides, and also check the SN. Whole thing may be a moot point after getting that info.
If I did get it and sell it, I'd probably split the difference. He'll have a lot of moeny he didn't expect, and I can make out too. And the world saves a super rare gun from a terrible fate.
I just talked to one of the other guys he works with. Said he wants to sell it for $700
Scary part is he was "going home to clean it up". That may well mean steel wool and a home re-blue at the kitchen table.
So how much is integrity worth??? Twenty grand pushes it pretty hard. Like I said, he's just an acquaintance...not family, nor even a friend.
I'll take the above advice about Singer making the slides, and also check the SN. Whole thing may be a moot point after getting that info.
If I did get it and sell it, I'd probably split the difference. He'll have a lot of moeny he didn't expect, and I can make out too. And the world saves a super rare gun from a terrible fate.
I would buy it if the guy is selling it. Go get the $700 (perhaps $1000, to be safe) after doing your homework.
Tell him that you've been wanting a gun like that to fill-in your collection for a while, but that you'd like to buy it "as is," since you like the historical value more than looks.
Acquaintance doesn't hold any water for me and half is more than fair. A lot of the replies here sound like socialism, in that you should give up your advantage of superior knowledge to help the less informed. You could be paying $700 for a fraud or arsenal re-work too, and I'd bet these same folks wouldn't suggest this guy give you your money back should your risk fall through. The risk and reward are both yours.
Family and friends who are like family are to only two considerations I'd be willing to make.
Tell him that you've been wanting a gun like that to fill-in your collection for a while, but that you'd like to buy it "as is," since you like the historical value more than looks.
Acquaintance doesn't hold any water for me and half is more than fair. A lot of the replies here sound like socialism, in that you should give up your advantage of superior knowledge to help the less informed. You could be paying $700 for a fraud or arsenal re-work too, and I'd bet these same folks wouldn't suggest this guy give you your money back should your risk fall through. The risk and reward are both yours.
Family and friends who are like family are to only two considerations I'd be willing to make.
A wise friend once told me...
A conscience is a discreet inconvenience. What he doesn't know won't hurt him. If you don't share a bank account I don't see a problem at all. Knowledge is power, if you have it and he doesn't, go for it!
A conscience is a discreet inconvenience. What he doesn't know won't hurt him. If you don't share a bank account I don't see a problem at all. Knowledge is power, if you have it and he doesn't, go for it!
Jack19
Member
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
The sad thing is, I don't think you're kidding. My friend, if you screwed me out of a $25,000 weapon because I didn't know what I had, and I found out about it, you'd meet my attorney real fast. I'd make sure you spent every dime of what you stole in legal fees.
A thief is a thief. And, then, you'd split his money with him to soothe your conscience. Unbelievable.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
If it is a Singer the SN # will be S800001 to S800500 from 1911.org
http://www.m1911.org/full_dates.htm
(*) Singer was awarded educational order No. W-ORD-396 for the manufacture of 500 M1911A1 cal. .45 pistols on April 17, 1940. The contract was to be completed by May 1, 1942. All 500 pistols of the order were posted in Ordinance procurement records by December 1941. They were then shipped to Springfield Armory and distributed mostly to Army Air Corps.
They also had what is called a DU-lite finish.
http://www.m1911.org/full_dates.htm
(*) Singer was awarded educational order No. W-ORD-396 for the manufacture of 500 M1911A1 cal. .45 pistols on April 17, 1940. The contract was to be completed by May 1, 1942. All 500 pistols of the order were posted in Ordinance procurement records by December 1941. They were then shipped to Springfield Armory and distributed mostly to Army Air Corps.
They also had what is called a DU-lite finish.
Get real! The guy wants to sell the gun, from what we're hearing. He wants $700. Does redneck2 have some moral obligation to pay him more? Is he obligated to fill-in the gaps in this guy's knowledge? Half is more than fair. Too stupid to know what he has? Too bad.
I suppose all those folks on "Antiques Roadshow" who see something valuble and pay a pittance for it should be sued also?
This is America, not a communist country. There are no guarantees.
Good point CZ-75!
If you've ever bought a used car from a dealership I guarantee sombody got screwed whether it was the person who traded it in or the person who bought it or both. Haggling is a time honored artform that should never die.
Collectable stuff has the potential to be even worse. Baseball cards, beanie babys, antiques, guns, etc. There are people out there who make a LOT of money from such miscellaneous things.
Here's another angle to consider. The internet can provide a wealth of information and it's available to anyone with some time and forethought to research what you need. All your "aquaintance" needs to do is look around, ask questions, and he can have the same information that you already have. If he doesn't bother that's his loss and your gain.
If you've ever bought a used car from a dealership I guarantee sombody got screwed whether it was the person who traded it in or the person who bought it or both. Haggling is a time honored artform that should never die.
Collectable stuff has the potential to be even worse. Baseball cards, beanie babys, antiques, guns, etc. There are people out there who make a LOT of money from such miscellaneous things.
Here's another angle to consider. The internet can provide a wealth of information and it's available to anyone with some time and forethought to research what you need. All your "aquaintance" needs to do is look around, ask questions, and he can have the same information that you already have. If he doesn't bother that's his loss and your gain.
MitchSchaft
member
Damn, Lab beat me to the car dealer scenario 
80fl
Member
Certainly a tough call on my part. Just where would most draw the line?
Let's say you found two cars you were interested in to purchase. Both IDENTICAL; # 1 was $10,000.00, # 2 was $9,500.00. For those of you inclined to tell Mr. 1911 what he has, would you, in a like manner, insist on paying the owner of car # 2 $10,000.00?
Exactly where is the line between getting a good deal and ripping someone off?
Where I come down on this, If Mr. 1911 is SELLING his gun for $700.00, it is not immoral to purchase it for asking price.
HOWEVER.....If Mr. 1911 asked our friend how much it's worth, it would be morally wrong to say anything but the truth in an attempt to CREATE a good deal.
Let's say you found two cars you were interested in to purchase. Both IDENTICAL; # 1 was $10,000.00, # 2 was $9,500.00. For those of you inclined to tell Mr. 1911 what he has, would you, in a like manner, insist on paying the owner of car # 2 $10,000.00?
Exactly where is the line between getting a good deal and ripping someone off?
Where I come down on this, If Mr. 1911 is SELLING his gun for $700.00, it is not immoral to purchase it for asking price.
HOWEVER.....If Mr. 1911 asked our friend how much it's worth, it would be morally wrong to say anything but the truth in an attempt to CREATE a good deal.
A transaction is a mutual agreement on the part of both the seller and the buyer.
You both walk away happy. Once its done its done. All the legal stuff is BS. It isn't like you're threatening or otherwise coercing him to sell it to you at a lower than fair price. Real simple, let him decide a price, negotiate a little and buy it. If you sell it and become a millionaire big deal, you did nothing wrong. Hire another "aquaintance" if you feel lonely.
The addage goes "let the buyer beware". Not the other way around. If somebody sells something for far less than what its worth, that's their loss. That isn't the buyer's fault regardless of what they know about the item in question. I wouldn't define that as being screwed. Buying a forgery or a fake of a rare item and paying top dollar for it from a knowing seller is being screwed.
Once the item is yours you can decide a price to sell it for as well. You can CHOOSE to just double your money or make 50 times your money. You can choose to create a bargain or a ripoff.
You both walk away happy. Once its done its done. All the legal stuff is BS. It isn't like you're threatening or otherwise coercing him to sell it to you at a lower than fair price. Real simple, let him decide a price, negotiate a little and buy it. If you sell it and become a millionaire big deal, you did nothing wrong. Hire another "aquaintance" if you feel lonely.
The addage goes "let the buyer beware". Not the other way around. If somebody sells something for far less than what its worth, that's their loss. That isn't the buyer's fault regardless of what they know about the item in question. I wouldn't define that as being screwed. Buying a forgery or a fake of a rare item and paying top dollar for it from a knowing seller is being screwed.
Once the item is yours you can decide a price to sell it for as well. You can CHOOSE to just double your money or make 50 times your money. You can choose to create a bargain or a ripoff.
I don’t see this as cheating the guy in any way, shape, form or fashion. Nothing is forcing this guy to sell a price far below the value other than his ignorance. Now, if he came to you asking your opinion and you lied in order to pick it up cheap and resell it high, it would be a horse of a different color. However, since he hasn’t done that, keep your mouth shut about what you know and pay him his asking price (maybe minus a bit for hagglings sake). It is his asking price after all.
OP
OP
redneck2
Member
Well,
the reply about $20,000 was really tongue-in-cheek
guess there's ways to justify either side. My brother goes to a lot of auctions. Bought the proverbial "box-o-junk" for $1. Found some type of little heirloom doo-hickey that was worth $200 in the bottom. Should he go give the seller another $175??
And, if Mr 1911would just buy a "Blue Book" for $34.95 like I did, he'd know better
Never thought about the "Antiques Roadshow" angle. I bet every single one of those people go back to the original seller and split the money.
And, to answer CZ's question...is his friendship worht 25K??? If I never saw him again it wouldn't be a loss to me.
the reply about $20,000 was really tongue-in-cheek
guess there's ways to justify either side. My brother goes to a lot of auctions. Bought the proverbial "box-o-junk" for $1. Found some type of little heirloom doo-hickey that was worth $200 in the bottom. Should he go give the seller another $175??
And, if Mr 1911would just buy a "Blue Book" for $34.95 like I did, he'd know better
Never thought about the "Antiques Roadshow" angle. I bet every single one of those people go back to the original seller and split the money.
And, to answer CZ's question...is his friendship worht 25K??? If I never saw him again it wouldn't be a loss to me.
I don’t see this as justifying anything. You happen to have a bit of knowledge that allows you to turn a 500-700 dollar gun into a many thousands of dollars gun. There is not one single thing keeping this guy from taking the gun to an expert or buying a blue book or researching it on the internet. If he chooses to remain ignorant and by so doing is happy with a price lower than the maximum he could get for it through more knowledgeable circles then that is his choice.
Agreed 100%.
Going back to the "Antiques Roadshow," some guys did this on some Civil War militaria and got spanked big time. It could be because they are recognized experts and appraisers, but I would expect if you mislead your friend with an intent to defraud, you'd be legally liable, expert or not.
cslinger
Member
I am firmly in the do the right thing camp. In the end you are much more likley to get better service from a good friend then any machine.
Tell the guy what he has and to get some kind of appraisal done. Just tell him to throw some of his good deals your way in the future.
No item is worth screwing a friend or even somebody you don't know but have the least amount of respect for. Money is money but it isn't worth a relationship.
Climbing off my soap box now.
Now that I am off of my soap box, I don't know the guy from Adam, give me his number I have some bargaining to do.
Tell the guy what he has and to get some kind of appraisal done. Just tell him to throw some of his good deals your way in the future.
No item is worth screwing a friend or even somebody you don't know but have the least amount of respect for. Money is money but it isn't worth a relationship.
Climbing off my soap box now.
Now that I am off of my soap box, I don't know the guy from Adam, give me his number I have some bargaining to do.
Chris Rhines
Member
That gun is worth exactly what everything else in the world is worth - what the buyer and seller agree on. If the guy wants to sell it, offer him a price. If he offers it to you for $700, give him $700 and be happy. You haven't cheated him, lied to him, misled him, or anything else - you have no moral issue whatsoever tied up in this transaction.
Were it me, I'd buy it and sell it to someone who really digs collectible 1911s. There is nothing at all wrong with buying the gun to resell it.
On the other hand, if he asked me straight up if the gun was valuable, I'd tell him the truth.
- Chris
Were it me, I'd buy it and sell it to someone who really digs collectible 1911s. There is nothing at all wrong with buying the gun to resell it.
On the other hand, if he asked me straight up if the gun was valuable, I'd tell him the truth.
- Chris
This is just some guy at work. That isn't enough reason for me to tell him anything.
Additionally, no one is forcing the guy to sell it. Neither are they keeping him from knowledge.
I suppose you'd go to a garage sale and tell the sellers what everything is worth and that the items you want are too cheap? Being TOO honest is not in most folks self-interest.
I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, but are you screwing him out of something? This individual has every right to set his own price. He has done so, and if it happens to be less than what he could have gotten, is it screwing him over to buy it at his price? Although as I think about it, if it were a friend of mine I would tell him because as his friend I want to see him to well. It’d be like telling him about a good deal I saw at a store or something. So I guess to some extent friendship does play a part. I think in that case though, it is because you want to see your friend get a good deal simply because he is your friend, not because you would be screwing him over otherwise.
- Status
Similar threads
