Was shooting a CZ P07 in DA and seemed to be shooting much better than in SA. My groups in SA were low and to the left however (various cheap 115gr. 9mm target ammo). Could the DA trigger pull reduce the flinch somehow, or was I just better at trigger control knowing I was using DA?
More Accurate In DA vs. SA?
- Thread starter HGM22
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carsten1911
Member
Howdy HGM22,
low and left unsually means you flinched in SA mode, assuming you are right-handed.
Since it is not as easy to "know" when the gun will kick and roar in DA mode you were able to trick yourself into the correct way of squeezing til the gun did go off somewehere along the long way of the trigger.
We have no information on your experience with handguns.
Could it be you are rather new to big (well...medium) sized cartridges in handguns?
Good news is that the SA-flinch can be overcome.
It is one of the biggest topics in handgun shooting, although of course nobody ever had this problem him-/herself ;-)
Just google "overcoming flinch" and similar word-combos and you find yourself in front of YouTube videos for the next two decades.
The gun itself does not care how you shoot it....intrinsic accuracy is not a function of the trigger action.
Greetings
Carsten
low and left unsually means you flinched in SA mode, assuming you are right-handed.
Since it is not as easy to "know" when the gun will kick and roar in DA mode you were able to trick yourself into the correct way of squeezing til the gun did go off somewehere along the long way of the trigger.
We have no information on your experience with handguns.
Could it be you are rather new to big (well...medium) sized cartridges in handguns?
Good news is that the SA-flinch can be overcome.
It is one of the biggest topics in handgun shooting, although of course nobody ever had this problem him-/herself ;-)
Just google "overcoming flinch" and similar word-combos and you find yourself in front of YouTube videos for the next two decades.
The gun itself does not care how you shoot it....intrinsic accuracy is not a function of the trigger action.
Greetings
Carsten
If you want a real wake up call on flinching, have a friend mix some snap caps in your mags randomly. The flinches become obvious (and a little funny).
I have shot some of my very best groups at 25 yards with my GP100 in DA. If you have one, the DA revolver is a great tool for getting rid of the flinches. Pull straight through in one smooth stroke.
A lot of people recommend dry firing, it's great for trigger control, but I can dry fire perfectly at home, then an hour later I'm flinching at the range.
I have shot some of my very best groups at 25 yards with my GP100 in DA. If you have one, the DA revolver is a great tool for getting rid of the flinches. Pull straight through in one smooth stroke.
A lot of people recommend dry firing, it's great for trigger control, but I can dry fire perfectly at home, then an hour later I'm flinching at the range.
As a flincher myself, I've posted about the method that got me past it. Assuming you have a flinch that is manifesting when the short, light trigger of the SA mode allows you to accurately anticipate the bang, maybe you will find it useful:
You have a flinch. This does not mean you are a coward or a wuss or a fraidy-cat. It means you have normal reflexes. A loud noise, a flash of light, and an innanimate object moving quickly in your hand is supposed to make you flinch.
But this flinching makes accurate handgun shooting impossible. You will hear all kinds of methods for "curing" it that really only reveal it. (For instance, having a friend load a mystery number of rounds into the magazine, so you can see the gun dip as you pull the trigger on an unexpectedly-empty chamber.)
The eyes are the key to the flinch. I would bet money that your eyes are closed when the gun goes off. The sights are aligned where they ought to be the last time you saw them before the gun fired, but the anticipatory flinch drives them low and (often) left. You cannot see it because your eyes are closed. The flinch begins with the eyes. And you can end it with your eyes, too.
Here's how I got past it (and I have to re-do this periodically, especially if I go a month or more without shooting). Take a pistol, preferably a .22 (you'll progress faster with a .22, but you can eventually get there with a centerfire service caliber). Go to your range, but do not hang a target. Just shoot into the backstop. Try to see as much as you can. Try to see the muzzle blast. Try to see the brass ejecting from the slide. Try to watch the slide or bolt operating. Try to see the front sight jump upwards during recoil. Don't worry about aiming (other than keeping the muzzle pointed safely at the backstop), just try to see as much as you can. There's no performance anxiety, no "good" or "bad" results, only awareness. Do this for many, many, many rounds. It may take more than you think is reasonable. Part of what you're doing is building trust in the reflexive part of your brain that the bang won't hurt you.
Once you can really see the gun go off, then you can add a target. You may or may not have trigger control issues to overcome, but that's simple mechanical and patience stuff that you can self-correct once you're aware of what's happening. As long as you're flinching, you can't get real feedback, so you cannot correct errors.
But this flinching makes accurate handgun shooting impossible. You will hear all kinds of methods for "curing" it that really only reveal it. (For instance, having a friend load a mystery number of rounds into the magazine, so you can see the gun dip as you pull the trigger on an unexpectedly-empty chamber.)
The eyes are the key to the flinch. I would bet money that your eyes are closed when the gun goes off. The sights are aligned where they ought to be the last time you saw them before the gun fired, but the anticipatory flinch drives them low and (often) left. You cannot see it because your eyes are closed. The flinch begins with the eyes. And you can end it with your eyes, too.
Here's how I got past it (and I have to re-do this periodically, especially if I go a month or more without shooting). Take a pistol, preferably a .22 (you'll progress faster with a .22, but you can eventually get there with a centerfire service caliber). Go to your range, but do not hang a target. Just shoot into the backstop. Try to see as much as you can. Try to see the muzzle blast. Try to see the brass ejecting from the slide. Try to watch the slide or bolt operating. Try to see the front sight jump upwards during recoil. Don't worry about aiming (other than keeping the muzzle pointed safely at the backstop), just try to see as much as you can. There's no performance anxiety, no "good" or "bad" results, only awareness. Do this for many, many, many rounds. It may take more than you think is reasonable. Part of what you're doing is building trust in the reflexive part of your brain that the bang won't hurt you.
Once you can really see the gun go off, then you can add a target. You may or may not have trigger control issues to overcome, but that's simple mechanical and patience stuff that you can self-correct once you're aware of what's happening. As long as you're flinching, you can't get real feedback, so you cannot correct errors.
ny32182
Member
I agree it is great to be aware of everything the gun is doing as much as possible.
EVERYONE who shoots at speed pushes the muzzle down. Good shooters do it milliseconds after the hammer drops. Obviously if you do it before, you will drive the shot low.
First, I'd verify that the sights really are on target. My P07 was good on elevation, but needed a windage tweak from the factory.
Next, dryfire, and really watch the front sight to make sure it doesn't move or dip as you break the trigger. Repeat a lot. When you are confident that you are breaking the trigger without disturbing the sights in dryfire, just add live ammo, and do the same thing, slow, one round at a time. Unless you change your mechanics, or something is wrong with the gun, you will shoot a nice tight slowfire group. As you pick up the pace, maintaining good (or at least acceptable) mechanics becomes more difficult, and there is the rub.
But you have to be able to do it in dryfire and slow live fire first.
EVERYONE who shoots at speed pushes the muzzle down. Good shooters do it milliseconds after the hammer drops. Obviously if you do it before, you will drive the shot low.
First, I'd verify that the sights really are on target. My P07 was good on elevation, but needed a windage tweak from the factory.
Next, dryfire, and really watch the front sight to make sure it doesn't move or dip as you break the trigger. Repeat a lot. When you are confident that you are breaking the trigger without disturbing the sights in dryfire, just add live ammo, and do the same thing, slow, one round at a time. Unless you change your mechanics, or something is wrong with the gun, you will shoot a nice tight slowfire group. As you pick up the pace, maintaining good (or at least acceptable) mechanics becomes more difficult, and there is the rub.
But you have to be able to do it in dryfire and slow live fire first.
Coyote3855
Member
ATLDave, your post is perhaps the best advice on curing a flinch that I have seen. Thanks for the post. I'm an NRA Basic Pistol Instructor and deal with flinches on a regular basis, including my own.
Plan2Live
Member
If I am striving for maximum accuracy during slow fire drills I am more accurate in DA mode with my DA/SA semi-auto primary carry gun. I attribute this to the stiffer trigger pull forcing me to focus that much more plus I seem to grip the gun tighter in DA mode. If I increase my cadence and am striving for rapid follow up shots then I am much more accurate (combat accurate) in SA mode.
I would post a photo but I posted it once then tried to post it again later and THR's system wouldn't allow me to post it again. It shows a five shot group of 9mm holes inside a dime sized orange target dot all fired in DA from 7 yards.
I'm fine with this knowledge and am not trying to alter any aspect of my shooting.
I would post a photo but I posted it once then tried to post it again later and THR's system wouldn't allow me to post it again. It shows a five shot group of 9mm holes inside a dime sized orange target dot all fired in DA from 7 yards.
I'm fine with this knowledge and am not trying to alter any aspect of my shooting.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
I once noticed this myself.
Its not so much that the DA reduces flinching but you mind is more unsure of when the shot will fire so it is a more "surprise" break.
In SA you mind knows when it is going to go boom and flinches.
Its not so much that the DA reduces flinching but you mind is more unsure of when the shot will fire so it is a more "surprise" break.
In SA you mind knows when it is going to go boom and flinches.
Both and neither.
The DA can't reduce flinch as jerking the trigger is controlled by the shooter.
Better trigger control doesn't come so much from knowing you need better trigger control as much as it distracts your conscious mind.
The reason that many folks jerk a DA trigger less than a SA trigger is that they are concentrating more on a smooth trigger stroke than on trying to make the shot go off exactly as the sights are perfectly aligned on the target.
The shorter, and usually lighter, SA trigger usually tempts people to make the shot go off...which almost always leads to worst shooting.
I've often used the DA trigger stroke of a SIG DA/SA pistol to cure folks who were jerking through their lighter SA triggers
olafhardtB
Member
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Some people have trouble holding guns due to weaker hands or injuries. I have a permanently injured third finger on my strong hand. The extra pull weight of the double action trigger really helps me grip the gun. I also have shot with both index fingers on the trigger. This seems to help over come jerking sideways. I don't find coordinating index finger movement to be difficult.
Lots of dry fire, .22 pistol fire, and mixing in empty case or snap caps. I used to have 44 Magnum and some reloads with tough primers. That sure made a flinch obvious and I was really stoked when I eliminated it and had a "click" on a tough primer with the sights rock solid. My buddy shooting it almost touched the muzzle to the floor on the "click," pretty funny!
My main gun is a DA/SA P226, my DA shots are solid with a smooth press, SA good as well, I'll pay more attention next time to see if I'm shanking any SA shots left.
My main gun is a DA/SA P226, my DA shots are solid with a smooth press, SA good as well, I'll pay more attention next time to see if I'm shanking any SA shots left.
old lady new shooter
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For me, the long heavy pull on a DA revolver makes it pretty much impossible to execute the trigger pull any way except smoothly. OTOH I suppose this might also limit my speed.
Actually it doesn't.
Once you've learn to press the trigger smoothly, you can do it quite quickly without jerking it
Once you've learn to press the trigger smoothly, you can do it quite quickly without jerking it
243winxb
Member
Bullet impact wheel. Right hand shooter
When shooting double action, you dont know when the shot will break.
When shooting double action, you dont know when the shot will break.
CoalTrain49
Member
It's true. DA helps cure a flinch. I have a Sig 220 that demonstrated my flinch. I was having trouble getting on paper in SA (new gun) and tried it in DA. Bingo, it groups on paper.
This is my first SA/DA pistol in a long time. I mastered my 1911's but this Sig SA is way different. No feedback at all until you reach a very precise point. It's like a ghost trigger compared to a Gold Cup. Very strange trigger.
This is my first SA/DA pistol in a long time. I mastered my 1911's but this Sig SA is way different. No feedback at all until you reach a very precise point. It's like a ghost trigger compared to a Gold Cup. Very strange trigger.
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