More Henry .45-70 Problems

[WrongHanded]

This may be more of a handloading issue than a rifle issue, but at this point I'm not sure. If the mods want to move it, I understand.

I have a Henry HO10 steel receiver with 18.5" barrel in .45-70 GVT. This rifle is a replacement for one I previously had a chamber machining issue with. I haven't had much chance to really test it out, but I didn't run some soft shooting loads through it and it worked fine. That is until last week when I tried something more powerful.

I had a load that seemed to be working well using an RCBS 45-405 gas checked bullet and H322. The actual bullet weight is around 425gr, and the diameter is .458". It seemed to work quite well in the previous rifle when I did my part. It's a stout load but the chrono numbers were fairly tight and as I recall, accuracy was on par with what I could get using irons with other loads.

But in the new rifle, I'm not even really grouping at 25 yards. On two different days I was seeing shots up to 10" apart off the bench. Now that alone could be me, or even an issue with the red dot I installed (though I confirmed with the irons). But I also notice keyholing with many of the holes in the target. By that, I mean many of the bullets are flying almost sideways upon impact in some cases. No leading or mess in the barrel that I can see, though the gas checks were to help prevent that anyway.

Could it be the bullet is too loose in this bore (I haven't slugged it)? Or could this be a twist rate to bullet weight issue? Maybe a combination? Or something else? I'm honestly just amazed to see evidence that the bullets from this load are so unstable at only 25 yards!

I'll be testing some factory Hornady 325gr FTX and a lighter 405gr/2400 load, to see if accuracy is an less horrendous with either of those.

 

[Hartkopf]

I had a key holing problem with a 44 magnum rifle that was as bad as you are describing. Slugged the barrel and all questions were answered. Was shooting.4295 bullets and barrel slugged.432.

 

[JeffG]

Boy, get out your calipers. SWAG (guess) here, is your bullet isn't filling the bore. Or you are stripping the bullet with the rifling by pushing it a little fast. How does the bore look, any leading?(soft bullet?) Try slowing your load down a little, see what happens. It might just be that. 1:20-rate rifling twist, should be doing it for you.

One more thing, you are heavy crimping, right?

 

[WrongHanded]

Boy, get out your calipers. SWAG (guess) here, is your bullet isn't filling the bore. Or you are stripping the bullet with the rifling by pushing it a little fast. How does the bore look, any leading?(soft bullet?) Try slowing your load down a little, see what happens. It might just be that. 1:20-rate rifling twist, should be doing it for you.

One more thing, you are heavy crimping, right?

That's a good thought. The bore is clean, but I know all about that lead streaking from a different load. The gas checks may be cleaning up any lead left behind, but the bullets could still be skipping over the rifling. Perhaps if other loads do work better I'll try slowing these particular bullets down. I already pulled about 50 that I had loaded up, but they weren't cheap so I'd rather shoot them than not.

The crimp is certainly pretty heavy. I'm using the Lee FCD and it's noticable.

 

[3Crows]

If you have any, shoot some factory ammo.

I think you need to size up to .459 or so but you may need to check your barrel ID.

The Lee FCD, do not some of those also size the bullet?

Is the twist rate of the Henry different from a Marlin, I did not think so?

 

[Charlie98]

I'm going to guess you need to go up on bullet diameter. Either that, or the rifling is too lazy... I had a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt that printed shotgun patterns because of the lazy 1:38 rifling.

EDIT: I have a fresh box of Oregon Trail 405grn sized at .459" if you want to try a few. They are not gas checked.

 

[Speedo66]

If you have any, shoot some factory ammo./QUOTE]

This, if you're still getting those type groups with factory ammo, send it back again.

Factory ammo groups will be repeatable, I doubt they'll want to try your reloads. If they say it shoots fine, ask them what they're using.

 

[WrongHanded]

If you have any, shoot some factory ammo.

I think you need to size up to .459 or so but you may need to check your barrel ID.

The Lee FCD, do not some of those also size the bullet?

Is the twist rate of the Henry different from a Marlin, I did not think so?

The twist rate is apparently 1:20. As far as slugging the barrel goes, I've never done it because I've never really needed to. But on this rifle I might have to give it a try. The concept seems simple enough.

As for the FCD resizing bullets, I suspect that is a possibility although all mine seems to do is compress a ring at the case mouth where the crimp groove is located. After pulling bullets I measured them and none were under .4580" none a over .4585", though I am using digital calipers.

EDIT: I have a fresh box of Oregon Trail 405grn sized at .459" if you want to try a few. They are not gas checked.

That's a kind offer Charlie. Thank you. Though after a horrible experience with leading the barrel previously, I have a strong preference for a gas checked bullet. I'm also in a tricky situation regarding powder. 2400 is okay for plinking, but the only rifle powder I have is H322, which seems to run better at higher pressure. I'd honestly just like to find one solidly performing load that works and call it good. Though it doesn't need to be as stout as the last one....which hurt.

 

[Charlie98]

Be aware, the severe leading may very well have been because the bullet was undersized. I’ve done a lot of work with cast bullets, and gas checks... as long as the bullet is properly sized, and of reasonable hardness, you can easily push cast to 2000fps without a gas check. H322 is a reasonable powder, I don’t see why you can’t get There from Here.

 

[Crosshair]

Be aware, the severe leading may very well have been because the bullet was undersized. I’ve done a lot of work with cast bullets, and gas checks... as long as the bullet is properly sized, and of reasonable hardness, you can easily push cast to 2000fps without a gas check. H322 is a reasonable powder, I don’t see why you can’t get There from Here.

This has been my experience as well.

As long as the bullet isn't undersized and of something harder than swaged lead you really don't get leading.

Accuracy is always what has limited velocity for me. Not leading.

 

[WrongHanded]

Be aware, the severe leading may very well have been because the bullet was undersized. I’ve done a lot of work with cast bullets, and gas checks... as long as the bullet is properly sized, and of reasonable hardness, you can easily push cast to 2000fps without a gas check. H322 is a reasonable powder, I don’t see why you can’t get There from Here.

Well that would certainly make things easier. Maybe I can try some coated lead and get a decently accurate load dialed in that won't cost me too much in the long run. I've previously seen gas checks as a kind of fail safe against leading, and something that would more easily allow me to run the same loads in multiple firearms with decent results. But I only have one .45-70 so I guess that doesn't matter.

First I'll confirm the gun groups okay with Hornady 325gr factory. If it does, I'll start looking for a source of .459" lead to use with the H322 I already have. But if the factory works out and I can still take you up on your offer for some Oregon Trail bullets, I'll PM you.

 

[Kyrsen]

I’ve got the Henry 45-70 and reload .459” with excellent results. Sportsman’s will get a box of 250 prelubed 405 gr .459” projectiles every once in awhile for ~$50. You could also cast your own.