More Love for Spears

[Cosmoline]

It's odd to me that the oldest weapon of mankind is also the least appreciated these days. Consider the facts. The spear was in continuous, active use as the primary weapon for hunting and battle from the dawn of mankind right up into the 19th century, when calvary units continued to use them. Indeed most of the great war rifles of the 20th century were also formidible spears, and were used as such many times.

But now the spear is relegated to the museum--a relic with no apparent place in the world of practical self defense. Considering how long a track record the spear has, as well as its flexibility as a weapon, that seems odd. It's a weapon that allows the user to deliver an almost instantly fatal wound at a distance with nothing more than a shove. It can be thrown if balanced and has not only brought down all game on the planet, there's considerable evidence it drove scores of massive, dangerous animals into extinction from the cave bear to the wooly mammoth

So what current production, practical spears are out there? Do any martial arts still train people in the use of spears?

 

[Highland Ranger]

If you decide to "go spear" let me know and I'll drive up to Alaska and take those new fangled guns off your hands . . . .

 

[Phantom Warrior]

But now the spear is relegated to the museum--a relic with no apparent place in the world of practical self defense. Considering how long a track record the spear has, as well as its flexibility as a weapon, that seems odd.

Not really. Seen anyone carrying a spear lately? It's big and long and clunky. You get a lot more bang for your buck w/ a nice small pistol. And more bang period, really. I'd rather have a gun than a spear.

And it doesn't lend itself well to improvisational self-defense either. You can find things similar to to a staff or an escrima in every day life, but how many long pointy things are there out there?

That's just technology for you. I bet people put their rocks in the museum pretty quick when stone knives and spears came out. As to modern production spears...try Cold Steel's website.

 

[ecos]

shaolin still train with spears. do a search on file share programs like bearshare and you can find some pretty neat free (legal and illegal) martial arts videos..even spear forms

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Another vote to check out Cold Steel. With the short shaft they are not too unweildy. I have actually considered one for home back-up since it's basically a razor sharp short sword.

Oh, and I think PA has put in a spear season for deer or were at least thinking about it. So the spear might be making a comeback!

 

[Cosmoline]

Not really. Seen anyone carrying a spear lately? It's big and long and clunky. You get a lot more bang for your buck w/ a nice small pistol. And more bang period, really. I'd rather have a gun than a spear.

Certainly, but this being the non-firearms forum it's not quite what I was getting at. Look how much attention is paid to knives, swords and the like. Clearly the advent of the firearm did not render all non-firearm weapons obsolete.

As far as carrying a spear, the same thing applies to swords but that doesn't stop people from having fixations on them and spending tons of money on new ones.

It just seems odd to me that we focus so much on large knives and swords when these weapons played a much more minor role in human history, and are less effective. The spear is the purest means of using sectional density to kill. It, far more than the sword or knife, is the direct linear ancestor of the firearm.

 

[Cosmoline]

If you decide to "go spear" let me know and I'll drive up to Alaska and take those new fangled guns off your hands . . . .

As it happens, most of my rifles are also spears. But I'll admit I haven't a clue how to use them as spears. That's another point. Bayonet training with the great war rifles was once seen as critical, but is now viewed as bizarre and archaic. There used to be a whole martial art around thrusts and blocks with the bayonet. The bayonet on a nine pound Mauser or Mosin makes it into an absolutely lethal spear and close combat weapon.

 

[Cosmoline]

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. Compare the Clovis Point with the rifle bullet. There you can see the links very clearly indeed.

 

[JShirley]

The spear is the most formidable manual weapon at close range, without a doubt.

It's easy to use a spear. You thrust. Yeah, you can get fancier, but that's the most important part. You can also (especially with rifle w/ bayonet) use a butt stroke or smash. Also easily learned.

John

 

[Valkman]

I'll be amking a bunch of spears next month for Boy Scouts - should be interesting. Some lowlife stole the ones they had so we'll make some more.

 

[Oldnamvet]

Many years ago, I spent several days of BCT learning bayonet fighting. That is about as close to spear fighting as I've seen. I wonder if the Army still teaches bayonet fighting? On the end of an M-14, it was nasty. On the end of the M-16 (when I was in RVN), it looked like a joke. I feared if I actually tried using it the rifle would break. Thankfully, I never saw it tested out.

 

[Sunray]

"...calvary units continued to use them..." Lance, not a spear. In any case, spears were used in times past because they were cheap to make and required less training for a peasant army. A spear was generally less easy to defend against, armour-wise, too. Mind you, a good swordsman(rapier mostly) will merely knock it out of the way and promptly kill the spearman. That's how the Spanish beat the Swiss pikemen.
"...my rifles are also spears..." The book 'Cold Steel' covers bayonet fighting with an M-1. I'm not sure if it's still being printed. Paladin Books maybe. Have it around here some place. I'm not sure where or I'd post the author etc.

 

[Cosmoline]

The Swiss pikes were extremely long--over 20 feet! That was long enough break the ranks of the enemy phalanx-style, but it was also so long that a Spaniard brave and quick enough could dodge underneath. A shorter spear would have been more effective at blocking the swordsmen, if not calvary charges. It's an example of relying too much on one highly specialized type of weapon. In that case the very long pike. And let's not forget how effective those "archaic" Pikemen were in other battles. Those Swiss “hedgehogs" could block the most highly armed knight, and the Swiss won many more battles than they lost using the tactics. They were in very high demand as mercenaries, and it was the loss of many trained pikemen to fight for other nations that helped weaken the overall military force.

Later on, a similar pattern emerged when the Zulu short battle spear was also used to undermine overlong traditional spears.

Mind you, a good swordsman(rapier mostly) will merely knock it out of the way and promptly kill the spearman.

It's nowhere near that easy, esp. if you're facing a spear of more maneuverable length. The spear has reach on the rapier, and its greater weight and increased leverage makes batting it out of the way like a foil an unrealistic proposition. It would be a very interesting exercise to pit two trained inviduals against each other in a fencing bout, one with a blunt spear and the other with a foil.

The spear is also far more practical as a hunting weapon than a sword.

 

[El Tejon]

Cos, if you want a "real" spear, probably best to go with a custom job. Or, get a custom staff and then mount your own head (maybe a harpoon head?). Treating the wood properly (flexible yet strong) is the tricky part.

For training, one usually sees these with the blunted blades:
http://www.wle.com/products/w030.html

Many martial arts train the spear, Choy Li Fut, White Crane, Long Fist, Hung Gar, Praying Mantis, inter alia.

Mantis trains the Big Four (staff, saber, spear, straight sword) initially and has several spear forms including spear vs. broadsword or spear vs. double daggers or spear vs. tiger hook swords that you usually see in demonstrations. Let me ask my fellow martial arts knuckleheads and see if I can get you a video. There was one on the Indy club's site but it's gone now.

Other styles have not specifically study the spear but its long weapons can be readily adapted to spears, e.g. Wing Chun whose 6 and 1/2 staff looks very "speary."

 

[hso]

Indeed most of the great war rifles of the 20th century were also formidible spears,

Well, spears, yes. Formidible spears, not so much, but we get the point.

Do any martial arts still train people in the use of spears?

Yup, just ask John Shirley, ElTe, or Daniel who've all trained in spear. Many Chinese styles that teach weapons teach spear. The westeren MA styles taught by ARMA cover spear.

So what current production, practical spears are out there?

Cas Iberia and Cold Steel come to mind. It's almost unfair to mention both at the same time considering the CS products are spare utilitarian things while the CI are historically correct.

 

[hso]

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. Compare the Clovis Point with the rifle bullet. There you can see the links very clearly indeed.

Let's not confuse coincidence with causal relationships. One is based on hypersonic aerodynamics the other on attachment to a shaft.

 

[hso]

Mind you, a good swordsman(rapier mostly) will merely knock it out of the way and promptly kill the spearman.

The rapier is much too light to knock a spear or pike aside. Are you referring to the battle of Marignano, the great defeat of the Swiss?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Certainly, but this being the non-firearms forum it's not quite what I was getting at. Look how much attention is paid to knives, swords and the like. Clearly the advent of the firearm did not render all non-firearm weapons obsolete.

As far as carrying a spear, the same thing applies to swords but that doesn't stop people from having fixations on them and spending tons of money on new ones.

It just seems odd to me that we focus so much on large knives and swords when these weapons played a much more minor role in human history, and are less effective.

Fair enough. I based my reply on the fact that you said "practical" self-defense, which to me implies something that's reasonable for every day use. Carrying around a spear (or even a sword) hardly falls into that category.

I think knives are a reasonable thing to focus on because a knife can easily supplement a firearm, while a sword or (especially) a spear is to much to handle. As for swords, I think those have more intrinsic coolness than spears. Plus there are a lot of people, relatively speaking, that still use swords. SCA, fencing, martial arts, etc. I own a very real sword, but it's because I'm a martial arts practitioner, not just a fan.

(Also, I agree w/ hso's second post.)

As it happens, most of my rifles are also spears. But I'll admit I haven't a clue how to use them as spears. That's another point. Bayonet training with the great war rifles was once seen as critical, but is now viewed as bizarre and archaic. There used to be a whole martial art around thrusts and blocks with the bayonet. The bayonet on a nine pound Mauser or Mosin makes it into an absolutely lethal spear and close combat weapon.

Many years ago, I spent several days of BCT learning bayonet fighting. That is about as close to spear fighting as I've seen. I wonder if the Army still teaches bayonet fighting? On the end of an M-14, it was nasty. On the end of the M-16 (when I was in RVN), it looked like a joke. I feared if I actually tried using it the rifle would break. Thankfully, I never saw it tested out.

We spent one morning praticing bayonet techniques and another fighting w/ pugil sticks. And, honestly, I think it was more to instill "warrior ethos" than for any practical use. Our drill sergeants told us "if you are surrounded and you have to 'fix bayonets' you are f***ed."

I think the reason for that is the development of effective repeating rifles. Watch a movie like "The Mask of Zorro", for example. He run around w/ a sword because all the soldiers w/ rifles get one shot at him. Probably not a terribly accurate shot, either. Fast forward to today. Haji would hold down the trigger on his AK and let loose a whole 30 round magazine and Zorro would be dead as a doornail.

The "great war rifles" were usually bolt action, w/ limited magazine capacity. So it was very likely you would run your magazine dry or get stuck reloading or not have time to work the bolt for another shot. Current war rifles (M-16, AK, etc) give you 30 rounds until you run dry, magazine changes are very quick, and you just keep pulling the trigger until you run dry. Plus you can carry a sidearm, w/ another 7-17 rounds on tap, which is going to be significantly more lethal than an M4 w/ a bayonet.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well, spears, yes. Formidible spears, not so much, but we get the point.

You'd be surprised! An eight pound Mauser or Mosin with a bayonet fixed could stick a wild boar, no problem. I've run through birch trees with a single blow from one. THey're pretty scary. Human flesh wouldn't even slow that blade down, even with a light thrust.

We spent one morning praticing bayonet techniques and another fighting w/ pugil sticks. And, honestly, I think it was more to instill "warrior ethos" than for any practical use. Our drill sergeants told us "if you are surrounded and you have to 'fix bayonets' you are f***ed."

On the modern battlefield, when your bayonet is just a cruddy knife attached to a light assault rifle--I'm sure that's true. But even today, you put a bayonet on a big hardwood war rifle and you've got a surprisingly effective and lethal killing tool. The Chicoms did some real damage with their Mosins during the Korean conflict.

 

[Cosmoline]

Let's not confuse coincidence with causal relationships. One is based on hypersonic aerodynamics the other on attachment to a shaft.

Both use sectional density to kill. There's no coincidence there. You can attach a shoe to a shaft--the clovis point evolved and spread across the world because when attached to a shaft it penetrated flesh extremely well. The spitzer BT bullet penetrates air extremely well, but also moves through flesh very effectively. The physics of ballstics are of course different from the pysics of a spear in some respects. In the case of the spearhead the sharpness of the edges matters more, for example. But in both cases sectional density is a primary key to lethality, esp. when hunting large furry things.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

On the modern battlefield, when your bayonet is just a cruddy knife attached to a light assault rifle--I'm sure that's true. But even today, you put a bayonet on a big hardwood war rifle and you've got a surprisingly effective and lethal killing tool. The Chicoms did some real damage with their Mosins during the Korean conflict.

The issue isn't the size of the pointy thing, it's what the defender is using. I'll admit a Mosin w/ bayonet probably is more effective than an M4 w/ a bayonet but 30 rounds of 5.56 or 7.62x39 will still beat it.

Both use sectional density to kill. There's no coincidence there. You can attach a shoe to a shaft--the clovis point evolved and spread across the world because when attached to a shaft it penetrated flesh extremely well. The spitzer BT bullet penetrates air extremely well, but also moves through flesh very effectively. The physics of ballstics are of course different from the pysics of a spear in some respects. In the case of the spearhead the sharpness of the edges matters more, for example. But in both cases sectional density is a primary key to lethality, esp. when hunting large furry things.

I agree that spears and spitzers bullets are more effective than shoes on a stick and lead balls, respectively, but it's still just a coincidence. There is no developmental link. Did someone shove a Clovis point spear into a guy a the speed of sound and say "Hey, this is great. I should make a bullet shaped like this spear?"

The fundamental differences between firearms and non-firearm weapons (i.e. gunpowder and projectiles moving at the speed of sound) pretty much invalidate that idea. Are pistols evolved from swords? Do people study bows to develop more effective missiles or cannons?



P.S. hso, would you throw some page breaks in between your pictures? Having to scroll left and right to read people's posts is driving me nuts.

 

[JJE]

I have to agree. I bought one of the Cold Steel short Assegai spears a couple of years ago and it was dirt cheap. Spear use is pretty self-explanatory: thrust/impale. I'd hate to be shot, but what really gives me the shivers is the thought of having a double-edged, 8-inch blade stuck through me. Ouch!

 

[tellner]

George Silver was right when he said "The half-pike hath advantage against all weapons." If you aren't using projectiles a ~six foot spear is a terrifying thing. If you have a good-sized rifle with a long bayonet it's a fair approximation.

The Japanese have a martial art devoted entirely to bayonet fighting, Juken-Jutsu. I don't know if there are any teachers or clubs in your area. The Indian subcontinent has superb staff and spear traditions. I'm generally not so big on the way weapons are taught in the Chinese martial arts. More often than not you learn some forms, but the training methods, teaching progressions and two-person work that are required to make it useful have been abandoned.

Try looking at old field military training manuals. The bayonet has been in use for over 300 years.

 

[middy]

The spear is the superior hand-to-hand weapon all other things being equal, but it doesn't have the romance of the sword. The sword was usually used by the nobility and often carried as a status symbol. The spear was used by everyone. The sword's mystique keeps it popular despite the irrelevance of hand-to-hand weapons in today's world.

 

[tellner]

The sword's mystique keeps it popular despite the irrelevance of hand-to-hand weapons in today's world.

To which I must respectfully say "Nonsense". Weapons other than firearms are of vital importance to anyone interested in self protection, both as tools for defense and as things an aggressor may use against the defender.