More on no requirement of LEO's to protect citizens.

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braindead0

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I hope this isn't a duplicate..

Posted on Strike the Root

To Serve and Protect--Itself

by John Peters

On November 18, 2001 , a woman was shot to death in her suburban Detroit home by her distraught husband. He then turned the gun on himself and died instantly.

This scenario, unfortunately, is played out all too often across the nation. If these were the only facts, you might shrug with empathy and ask yourself why this merits your consideration. This case was different.

In this case, the police were present - not following the murder/suicide - but before and during it.

Following threats by her husband to her life and the lives of her children, the woman went directly to the local police. She informed them that she was in fear for her life and the lives of her children if she tried to move out of the marital home. She informed the police that her husband had a gun, had threatened her and her children that day, and that she wanted to move out of the home. The police computer confirmed a personal protection order had been issued by the court against the husband.

The police agreed to accompany the woman to her home and remain there while she removed her personal belongings and her children. Two officers accompanied her to her home and remained inside to the end - the end of her life and her husband's.

Despite encountering the husband, and having been apprised of all the facts which led them to accompany the woman to her home, the police never questioned the husband, segregated him from his wife or even bothered to search him for a gun. They hung around and watched as the husband followed his wife back and forth from the home to her car with her personal belongings.

As the police spoke with others in the house, the husband followed his wife into her bedroom, closed the door and shot her. He then shot himself. This was exactly what the wife had asked the police to protect her from, and what they had agreed to do.

If these police officers had been private security officers instead, they and their employer would be held accountable in a court of law under breach of contract or negligence theories. Alas, they are government employees. The result is that they are not accountable for their malfeasance or her death. This is what separates the private sector from government.

Another government branch - the courts - has decided that police are not legally responsible for such gross failures. In Michigan , the state's highest court has decided that individual police officers may not be sued unless they are the only cause of the injury or death. This special treatment is not available to those in the private sector. In every case involving private individuals or companies, negligence is assessed on the basis of each party's percentage of fault. Yet another branch of government--the Michigan legislature--passed a statute that grants absolute immunity to any municipality, thereby barring any claim against the officers' employer. No such privilege is available to private sector employers.

Faced with these obstructions, the deceased woman's estate pursued a claim against the officers' employer in federal court alleging that she was deprived of her life without due process of law. On June 9, 2004 a federal judge dismissed the estate's case. The basis for the dismissal was that, "a State's failure to protect an individual against private violence simply does not constitute a violation of the Due Process Clause." Coming from the U.S. Supreme Court, this is the law in every state. This outrage is compounded by the government's simultaneous efforts to prevent citizens from taking any steps to protect themselves, and punishing them when they do.

How do you explain this state of affairs to the family of the deceased? It was not easy. I was the attorney left with the task. The truth is that most citizens actually believe that the police are under some legal duty to come to your aid.

In oral arguments before the federal court, I closed by noting that if this is the state of the law in this country, the courts should require that all police vehicles be posted with a warning label that reads: "Caution: We Are Not Required To Protect You." Then, I explained, we will at least know the truth, and be able to take steps to protect ourselves.

The next time you read the phrase "To Serve and Protect" on a police vehicle, remember that this is government's motto about itself, not you.
 
As the police spoke with others in the house, the husband followed his wife into her bedroom, closed the door and shot her. He then shot himself. This was exactly what the wife had asked the police to protect her from, and what they had agreed to do.

See? Only the police and military need guns.
 
1) The "no requirement" you talk about is based on the fact that I can't be in two places at one time. If I'm at one end of town answering a call, and something happens at the other end, the PD can't be sued because we weren't there to answer that second call. We do "Protect and Serve", but we don't have a transporter to instantly beam over to your place.

2) There are several levels of Protection From Abuse Orders (PFA's). Some have the defendant leaving the residence immediately, having no contact (in person, phone, email, through friends, etc).......yet other let the people remain in the same house but are prohibited from harassing, acts of violence (throwing things, etc). PFA's are served that day, either by the sheriffs dept, or we can use a copy that is dropped off at our station.

3) The posting doesn't list what kind of PFA order there was. Was the male supposed to be there? Was the female? If the male wasn't supposed to be there, did the female invite him over or let him in? This happens quite often with PFA's. One half, usually the female, will get a PFA against her husband, boyfriend, etc......and he gets tossed from the residence. Several days go by and we get called back to the residence beacuse they are fighting with the female saying she has a PFA against him, only to have us find out that she called him up and told him to come over. :fire: Its a no win situation. The female thinks she can hold the PFA over the head of the male, basically threatening to call the police if she doesn't get what she wants. And everything is fine until the next arguement.

4) If there was a PFA in effect I would not have let the female and male in the same room. One officer would have went with her while she removed items she needed immediately (medications, some personal belongings) while the second officer stayed with the male.
 
Although I don't recall the specifics, this was settled by the courts way back in the 1970's. The government has no duty to protect you.

That's OK with me, I'd rather do it myself. I just wish they'd admit it.
 
It's been known that the LEO's and others are not there to protect you and I can live with that.

What I can't live with is the fact that most of those who will hold this order (that they have no legal duty to protect you) are the same ones that will work to ensure that you can't protect yourself, or your family.

Double Standard as always. We can't and don't have to protect you but we will ensure that we will be on the side of our bosses and mayor in ensuring that you can't protect yourself.

Even in states that you are "allowed" to try to protect yourself, it will be hell on the person doing so. Even Steve has to admit that if he is called to a call where someone has fired and wounded or killed in self defense, he and the other LEO's will have no problem putting the true victim through hell, and taking their gun (and usually not giving it back even after it's been called self defense without more money and a lawyer having to be hired by the victim) which they will most likely NOT get back.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't now days. I truly believe that most LEO's get upset if a "civilian" takes care of the job themselves and takes a criminal off the streets forever. Most that we hear around here is "let us take care of it, it's our job" and then when they fail, it's always, "we don't have to protect you as an person but society as a whole" line... and they will always bring up the SCOTUS ruling on it. Yet they don't want you to own a tool to protect yourself (mainly guns), they don't want you to be able to do anything but get a piece of paper and then say, "we will help you" when they really won't.

And Steve, with her trying to get an escort by the police to get her stuff I really doubt that she "invited" him over. I have a feeling that it was his place, she was scared (and it turned out she was correct) of him and needed the escort to ensure her safety.

I really am dissappointed that you didn't think of this and decided instead to blame a person who is now dead, who relied on her police escort, and all failed.

Instead of getting into a pissing contest, I can only believe that you are a good cop (or officer or whatever you like to be addressed) and it's in you to defend your "brothers and sisters" in blue (or whatever color). I only ask that you look upon us lower life forms, the civilians, and take what is said about them and look at the facts before you pass judgement.

Oh, if you want a quick bust on a civilian. I drove to NY and had to go through PA on my way up. I passed the sign that said, "Still 55", then the sign that said "Radar detectors illegal", and then the sign that stated the speed fines......

I drove at around 80 until I hit the mountains, you guys really need to fix those pot holes. I used a radar detector the whole way, and I was going over the speed limit of 55. Plus I had a GP100 .357 on the seat beside me, fully loaded.

So now, bust me and make sure I can never come to PA ever again.... But then again, the statue of limitations is over since I was never caught. Live with it, a civilian got away with all kinds of stuff while going through your state... :).

Wayne
 
Hmm. I thought I had something to say, but it turns out I don't. I think my two sigs say it all.

pax

There is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators but it does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution. The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties; it tells the state to let the people alone; it does not require the federal government or the state to provide services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law and order. -- Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982)

Because the state can no longer protect us from crime, it wants to take away from us the means of protecting ourselves. This is the logic of gun control. -- Joseph Sobran
 
manwithoutahome, one little point here, you said:
...us lower life forms, the civilians,...

Contrary to what a lot of police, and non police types think, they, (the police), are in fact civilians too.
 
The police provide a service to the public. The duty owed is to The People, not A Person.

Is it the same people who harp on this, who also want to "depower" the police because they are agents of the state, but they are also still "civilians"? So you think the police should provide "individual" attention, but want to strictly limit government power. Let's not tell the cops our names, but let's hold them responsible for taking care of us.
 
Another government branch - the courts - has decided that police are not legally responsible for such gross failures

Without such a shield from liability each and every police force in the US would sued out of existence in short order, or would be shut down in a New York minute by any municipal/State government with any common sense.

Either the above, or the Federal government would have to eventually step in with a Federally funded insurance program similar to flood insurance. Private carriers wouldn't touch writing a policy for any State or local government without an exclusion clause for their policing activities.

The liability shield is a good thing. We wouldn't have any police without it unless there was some kind of cap on damage awards and a Federal insurance program to spread the risk (cost) as widely as possible. There would have to be passed into law a statutory definition of the circumstances under which the police would be liable for failure to fullfiill some defined duty to protect.
 
I drove to NY and had to go through PA on my way up. I passed the sign that said, "Still 55", then the sign that said "Radar detectors illegal", and then the sign that stated the speed fines......
I don't know how long it's been since you've been in PA, but our speed limit is now 65, and radar detectors are NOT illegal IIRC. Virginia, on the other hand, does have the signs against the radar detector.
 
manwithoutahome;

1) Your gun, my gun, any gun used in a shooting will be seized in a shooting. It's called evidence. We just got one of our dept rifles back after it was used in a shooting. Took almost two years. Its held for trial and until any appeals might be heard. Then it will be given back.

2) I expect you to protect you and your family. If its self-defense, its self-defense. If its a case of someone being an idiot (shooter or shootee), then we need to find that out.

3) "They" is not me. I could care one way or the other if you own a gun. The "they" that don't want you to have a gun are the people YOU let get voted into office.

4) Whether it was his place or she invited him over will probably never be known. Its not a point worth arguing about. I didn't blame her, I just related what my experiences have been.

5) As for your last paragraphs. You really got one over on us there slick. Oh my.......now what will I do?? Grow up. :rolleyes:
 
manwithoutahome:

Oh, if you want a quick bust on a civilian. I drove to NY and had to go through PA on my way up. I passed the sign that said, "Still 55", then the sign that said "Radar detectors illegal", and then the sign that stated the speed fines......

I drove at around 80 until I hit the mountains, you guys really need to fix those pot holes. I used a radar detector the whole way, and I was going over the speed limit of 55. Plus I had a GP100 .357 on the seat beside me, fully loaded.

So now, bust me and make sure I can never come to PA ever again.... But then again, the statue of limitations is over since I was never caught. Live with it, a civilian got away with all kinds of stuff while going through your state...

Like Diggler said. Most interstates and major state roads are posted 65, at least away from larger residential areas. There are sections that are 55 for one reason or another, and maybe that's what the sign meant. (ie. "This section of road is still 55 m.p.h., unlike those other ones in PA you like to drive on.")

I don't recall ever hearing that radar detectors are illegal here, and a web site on the subject seems to confirm that. I've certainly never seen such a sign when entering or leaving the state. I've also never seen a sign with fines posted, which isn't to say they don't exist, but what's your point? Would you rather they didn't inform you of the fines, but have them anyway? I'm sure that's not what you want, so why complain about the sign? If you want to complain about fines for moving violations, show me a state that doesn't have any.

Pot holes suck. We have lots of them. The state animal is the contruction sawhorse. The state joke is the sign "End Road Work".

PA is relatively gun-friendly. We aren't Vermont, but we at least make it very easy to get a permit (shall-issue, resident and non-resident). (Yes, I know, shouldn't need a permit to exercise a constitutionally-protected basic human right. I agree. Bet you've travelled through a lot worse states, though.)

How'd this turn into a discussion of PA motor vehicle laws?

Oh, right, Steve in PA tried to contribute his highly relevant opinion and experience to the actual topic discussion, and you decided to take out your dislike of his response on our state collectively. Right.

-twency
___________
What's a "statue of limitations", anyway?
 
It seems to me that the issue of police protection is not a knock on the cops; it's due to the way our whole legal system has been built. The primary purpose is to maintain "law'n'order" in the community; to "keep the peace".

Built in to this is the physical reality, as pointed out above: Nobody can be in two places at once; no police force can afford enough officers to provide anywhere near the total protection the anti-gun types would have us believe is available.

You cannot impose a duty upon somebody where it is not possible to fulfill that duty.

Sobran's comment in pax' sig pretty well sums up the wrongheadedness of the blissninnies and the foolishness of some lawmakers. They are the ones who create the problems, not the police.

Art
 
Just to clear it up...

There used to be signs as soon as you crossed into PA that read:

Welcome to PA, Speed Limit STILL 55!

<rant>
I was glad to see them go, nothing like telling everyone passing through your state that you're an old holdout and won't move on with the rest of the country. It's almost as bad as having our tax dollars pay for re-doing all the billboards that lead into PA that say "Welcome to Pennsylvania. Governor _________ _________ welcomes you." Nothing like spending tax dollars on something that NO ONE cares about. Who cares who the governor is when you're visiting the state??
</rant>

OK, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

:D
 
I personally hate the police. They rarely help and are only around to intimidate and harass the law abiding citizens. And occasionally clean up the mess of a crime that they didnt prevent.

2 weeks ago my girlfriend, I, and her Parents were driving to NYC, we hit a flat on I-95 in front of Milford. The breakdown lane there is tiny and the flat was the tire to the roadside which meant whoever changed the tire would have thier back to the highway with cars flying by at 70 MPH within inches of thier body.

we had no flares or anything to warn comming cars that we were broken down and to be careful so my girlfriends father stood 15 yards down the road to try and force cars into the other lane or at least give them a heads up.

mark this...

4... 4 COPS drove by, LOOKED at us and kept going. 4!!!! this was over a period of 45 maybe 60 minutes while i was trying to get thge spare tire out of this funky tire compartment thingy under the seats of the van, of which i had no screw driver and had to use a pocket knife to open. I finnally got it, the whole thing took maybe 90 minutes. and during that 4 cops drove by and saw us and offered NO ASSISTANCE WHATSOEVER DESPITE THE DANGEROUS CONDITIONS. Its in the state charter that even OFF DUTY cops are supposed to help by placing flares orusing thier car as a warning device to driving motorists. 4 cops on duty drove by in squad cars, saw us and kept going. FINNALLY as i was finishing up and putting the caps back on the rims a female cop pulls up tells my girls father to get away from the white line. Heres what pissed me off....

A. it was 90 minutes later and i was done.
B. she was the 5th cop and the only one to stop.
C. she DIDNT EVEN GET OUT OF HER CAR OR ASK IF WE NEEDED ASSISTENCE.
D. she was on a GODDAMNED CELLPHONE!!!!

We took off... and here what REALLY irks me..

We drove about half a mile down the road and there was a cop who had pulled over what looked like a puerto rican kid in an acura and was writing him a ticket... THIS WAS ONE OF THE SAME COPS THAT DROVE PASSED US AND IGNORED US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I HATE the police.

And it was my hatred for how inept they are that led me to get a gun permit and exercise my 2nd amendment rights. I cant wait 90 minutes for a cop to get out of the donut shop to come and help me when im being held unarmed during a home invasion or a robbery. Ive decided to arm myself and take my safety and my familys safety into my own hands.
 
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That's what I was thinking. And your attitude kind of sucks.

Flares/triangles are cheap, you should have some of your own in the trunk, for your OWN safety. Plus if you become stranded you can start a fire with flares.

Anyone who takes 90 minutes to change a tire needs to watch more NASCAR races!
 
Double Standard as always. We can't and don't have to protect you but we will ensure that we will be on the side of our bosses and mayor in ensuring that you can't protect yourself.

Because the state can no longer protect us from crime, it wants to take away from us the means of protecting ourselves. This is the logic of gun control. -- Joseph Sobran

That's what really gets my panties in a wad is this attitude - Nope, the police don't have a duty to protect you, individually, but by golly, neither should you have the means to protect yourself. Everytime there is a case of a homeowner in this area using a firearm to protect himself and his family (and it's rare, this is the San Francisco Bay Area, after all), we get quotes from the police that they don't recommend resistance, just give them what they want, and maybe they'll leave you alone. Kinda reminds me of the Bad Guy in Steven King's "Storm on the Century" - "Give me what I want, and I'll go away". OK. Suppose the bad guy wants to rape your wife or your daughter? Just let him do it, and maybe he won't kill anybody. Nice. Nothing like relying on the kindness of strangers, and in this case, criminal strangers.

Last winter there was a rash of muggings in broad daylight at a local shopping center parking lot. The police chief said that if you are accosted, don't resist - you might get hurt! Well, news flash. These women were hit over the head with a blunt object, and they got hurt anyway. Nobody died, true, but what kind of advice is that to give to people? And just try to get a carry permit in this county - it ain't gonna happen unless you are a huge campaign contributor to the sheriff's campaign and on a first name "how's the wife and kids" basis with him. And yes, I vote, and yes, I regularly call, fax and write my elected "representatives".

So great. The LEO's are under no obligation to protect any of us, but they don't want us protecting ourselves, either. Just get yourself a cell phone, and call 911, and someone will send a clean-up crew and fill out a police report.

Guess I'd better put my flame suit on. I just reread what I wrote, and it sure sounds rant-like.
 
RE: No duty of the police to protect individuals...

How far do the SCOTUS rulings go? :confused:

For example a police officer observes a mugger in action and doesn't intervene :eek: (why should he risk his butt - after all - officer safety is paramount - just look at all the things they can do and are not required to do in its name). After the mugger is gone (long gone so he no longer can pose a threat to the policeman) the officer approaches the victim, demands ID and then takes a report of the crime. Of course while he's doing that he'll be lecturing the victim on just how stupid it was for him to be at this location at this time and finally will congratulate him on being smart and not resisting. (I imagine that if this scenario hasn't occurred somewhere in the US it's just a matter of time before it does). :scrutiny:

In this exagerated instance do the SCOTUS rulings apply? After all the police have no responsibility to protect the individual. :banghead:
 
Hey Steve,
I fully understand that you won't be much help if you are are busy across town.
In this case the officers were in the same house.

If I want someone to write a report and waste my time, I call the police.
If I feel I am in danger and need backup, I call armed friends.

I have told local LEOs more than once that if they can't prevent a crime on my property, they need not show up after I take care of it myself.
 
Next time call the Auto Club.......or learn to change a tire.

I did change the tire, but the problem wasnt so much as changing it as it was the fact that the spare was in this weird compartment under the seats, not to mention that it was scary what with cars flying by at 70 no more than 6 inches from by back.
 
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"That's what I was thinking. And your attitude kind of sucks.

Flares/triangles are cheap, you should have some of your own in the trunk, for your OWN safety. Plus if you become stranded you can start a fire with flares.

Anyone who takes 90 minutes to change a tire needs to watch more NASCAR races!"

Ill say it again, the spare was in a weird compartment that is in the van under the seats, there is no trunk. By the way i beleive i mentioned that it wasnt my car? 4 cops drove by without helping even though its thier job to? That one of the cops that drove by was writing someone a ticket even after he saw us? or that the one who did stop AFTER i finished changing the tire was on a cell phone and didnt get out of her car? Why do you put so much faith in strangers to protect you and help you?
 
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Attitude highlighted.

Ill say it again, the spare was in a weird compartment that is in the van under the seats, there is no trunk. By the way i beleive i mentioned that it wasnt my car? 4 drove by without helping even though its thier job to. That one of the cops that drove by was writing someone a ticket even after he saw us? or that the one who did stop AFTER i finished changing the tire was on a cell phone and didnt get out of her car? Why do you put so much faith in strangers to protect you and help you?

I don't put faith in strangers, or police, or anyone else to protect and/or help me. I make sure the fluids are filled, know where the tire is stored, have the proper basic tools that may be needed for basic repairs and have a cell phone BEFORE I go on a road trip. I don't feel sorry for someone who doesn't prepare for basic everyday troubles. If it were someone else's car, then they should have been prepared. Let them bust their knuckles.
 
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In the Columbine school shooting unarmed people were being systematically murdered and dying of their wounds while a virtual army of specially trained, equipped and armored cops were cowering outside, afraid to confront the two boys with guns. Their primary concern is their own safety, not yours. The police pretty much do two things. Firstly, they will investigate your murder and try to put the murderer in jail if they can catch him, so that he might be tried and sentenced to ten years (5 with good behavior). Secondly, they enforce government regulations on the citizenry and defend the government from the citizenry who might otherwise hang government officials from the nearest light post over those regulations. That's about it. Frankly, they do more of number 2 than number 1 nowadays, and the trend is moving continually in that direction.
 
For a really relevant fictional parallel of what's happening in America regarding our transformation into a police state, and the proper reaction of the people thereto, read Chapter VIII The Scouring of the Shire, in J.R.R. Tolkien's Return of the King, which is book III of The Lord of the Rings. Very meaningful for our times

I read Tolkien's trilogy a verrrrrrry long time ago. I don't remember the scouring of the shire. Guess I'll have to go out in the garage and dig through the boxes of books and find my copy and reread it. I have seen the movies, and others have pointed out that the scouring of the shire was not in the Return of the King. I'
 
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