"More people carrying guns will escalate the violence in the streets"

[CommanderCrusty]

Good luck with your talk. I'm sure you'll find lots of interesting ideas and talking points here on THR. Here are a couple more to consider.

1) Things are a bit different here in the USA. Our criminals are already armed.

2) If you are likely to face a couple of unarmed thugs, you might still be justified in using deadly force (the disparity of force argument). On the other hand, it would be much easier to justify using Mace/pepper spray, or if it was all you had, a folding pocket knife (used to disable their legs or arms) or sturdy flashlight (used on the knee or elbow).

3) Beware the Law of Unintended Consequences. In some states here in America, the penalty for murder and armed robbery are the same. Therefore, it is logical (in a twisted, criminal sort of way) to just go ahead and kill anyone your rob: same penalty, one less witness. So, be careful what you wish for in your home country.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

This is great and all, but has the OP from Sweden chimed back in. As far as I'm concerned Sweden ought to be Mars for all I know. I'm a born and bred Southerner of some three hundred plus years of ancestry (yes my family has been in Florida when it was still in the hands of the Spanish). Gun ownership on my mother's side is as natural as owning a bicycle or set of golf clubs (yet everyone seems to use their guns more). My father's side is from Long Island New York, and if it weren't for all his brothers moving to Pennsylvania I'd swear his whole side was antigun (my Dad is still anti to an extent).

Fair to say I don't have a clue how the social norms of Sweden works. What their sense of individualism comes to, what their sense of self comes to, and how they value human life. In Florida, among the my fellow white southerners (I'm Jewish and mixed with Native American, and supposedly African), whom are not in the KKK, it's perfectly alright to own guns, carry guns concealed (some are pro open carry, some are not), and use them to defend one's self against a criminal with no consequences be they either criminal or civil. And if a bad guy happens to die every now and again, well "America" won't miss them.

This isn't the norm in all of America, and to some this attitude is insane (I know because I explained it to a young Welsh woman once and she blanched and called me crazy, my fiancee's family thinks I'm nuts and they're from Massachusetts).

So where would Sweden find itself, would killing criminals be "shocking" to the moral and conscious fabric of their society. As some have said in the past, even on this website, should an act of robbery or theft result in a "death sentence." Because lets face it, guns can kill, maim, cripple, and ruin lives when in the hands of certain persons, even well-intending persons. Can Sweden's populace accept that.

Amongst my brethren (some of who are doctors, lawyers, businessmen, business owners), if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you act as a criminal then you have no right to be upset should your reward be six feet under or a life paralyzed from the neck down with your entire survival dependent on your respirator still working. I can accept that, but can the folks of Sweden accept that. Criminals have rights, after all we are told they are human beings, and to some these "Criminals" have the right to rob, rape, and murder, and suffer nothing but a life behind bars, fed three square meals a day, no pressure to pay the bills, internet access, reading materials and the free time to enjoy reading, cable television, and access to a whole host of snacks, and free medical care.

Can the folks of Sweden grasp possibly killing these "Criminals" with their guns?

 

[Teachu2]

I find anti-gun folks in the same boat as atheists - all their arguments evaporate in times of crisis, and they convert on one issue or the other, and often on both. They start praying for a gun...

What other countries do regarding gun control and the results of those efforts are interesting, but simply do not apply to the United States. The cultural differences are enormous, and are often overlooked completely in these discussions.

It's much more applicable to analyze data from within the U.S. when discussing the U.S. Has violent crime decreased in Florida since it became a right-to-carry state? What's happened in other states that have done the same? How about those that have further restricted carry rights? Those are answers that apply to the U.S., although Detroit may not have the same results as Flint, Los Angeles, or Miami.

Of course, both sides of the debate are guilty of interpreting data to suit their objectives while ignoring other relevant factors (like three-strikes laws, unemployment rates, prison early-release, and a host of others) that may affect the analysis/conclusions. One thing is for sure - outlaw guns, and gun-related crime will skyrocket.

 

[Skribs]

Like I've been saying for a while - the problem with antis is they want a bandaid fix to "gun violence". It's easy to make guns illegal. If there are no guns, there will be no "gun violence." The problem is it addresses only the tool, and not the violence. On the grand scheme, we don't need to disarm the bad guy. We need to arm the good guy to provide a deterrent, and provide social programs for the "bad" that will promote good behavior. It won't stop crime, but I do believe it will reduce it. Should those social programs fail, lock up the BG, and keep him locked up.

Not enough money to support the prison systems? Then get out of debt and pump money into them. This is getting a bit outside the scope of THR here, but anti-violence social programs, including victim and perpetrator education, as well as a much better prison system for repeat offenders, is a much-more-difficult to implement, but I believe would be much more successful system than "ban guns". Heck, encourage folks to buy guns, and use the tax money to support these social programs!

That's my belief on the grand scale. On the small scale, I recognize that there is one person wholly responsible for my safety: me. There are others I can call, but unless they're right there when something goes down, I am the only person that can defend myself. I want the tools to do it.

 

[hso]

Firearms homicide rates in Sweden are some of the lowest in the world (~.2) . The U.S. firearms homicide rate if about 20 times that. There's something culturally at work.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I don't know if anyone else said it but I think we are missing the obvious answer here. Sweden's neighbor, Norway, has the highest rate of personal firearms ownership in Europe, according to the UN report. We all now how crime is running rampant in Norway right? Actually the homicide rate in Norway is amongst the lowest in Europe. There doesn't seem to be a direct correlation to the number of firearms and murder rates.

 

[VAPOPO]

Chaiman Mao said it best. What need of sheep to own guns? Most politicians tend to see us as sheep but some of us are wolves in sheeps clothing-Criminals, and others are sheep dogs Police, Millitary and CCW. I like to think of myself as a sheep dog. I was the victim of a violent crime in my early 20's and still carry the scars and injuries 22 years later. I made it a point in life to never be a victim again.

 

[chhodge69]

A handgun is the best practical way to ensure you never have to place yourself at the mercy of criminals. Whether they are armed as well is not relevant. If they possess a disparity of force then they can seize control over you. A handgun gun gives you a chance to prevent that from happening. Are you willing to bet your life that all they want is your money? I'm not.

Remember - there is no social contract with criminals!

 

[Ivy Mike]

Chaiman Mao said it best. What need of sheep to own guns? Most politicians tend to see us as sheep but some of us are wolves in sheeps clothing-Criminals, and others are sheep dogs Police, Millitary and CCW. I like to think of myself as a sheep dog. I was the victim of a violent crime in my early 20's and still carry the scars and injuries 22 years later. I made it a point in life to never be a victim again.

politicians know darn well that gun law is a polarizing issue more useful for getting votes rather than stopping crime.

One simple look at the statistics shows us that when you look at crimes amongst non hispanic whites alone, the murder rate drops in half (roughly)
This tells me that poverty has a much greater effect on crime than guns. Until we are willing to address the poverty issue in this country and stop our damaging drug war, things will not change.

That being said, i favor an inexpensive knife over a gun these days and haven't packed a concealed firearm in nearly five years. I may have grown more liberal since posting here actively but i still don't trust the sh***y criminal types and haven't sold any of my cool guns.

 

[Lost Sheep]

This is great and all, but has the OP from Sweden chimed back in. As far as I'm concerned Sweden ought to be Mars for all I know. I'm a born and bred Southerner of some three hundred plus years of ancestry (yes my family has been in Florida when it was still in the hands of the Spanish). Gun ownership on my mother's side is as natural as owning a bicycle or set of golf clubs (yet everyone seems to use their guns more). My father's side is from Long Island New York, and if it weren't for all his brothers moving to Pennsylvania I'd swear his whole side was antigun (my Dad is still anti to an extent).

Fair to say I don't have a clue how the social norms of Sweden works. What their sense of individualism comes to, what their sense of self comes to, and how they value human life. In Florida, among the my fellow white southerners (I'm Jewish and mixed with Native American, and supposedly African), whom are not in the KKK, it's perfectly alright to own guns, carry guns concealed (some are pro open carry, some are not), and use them to defend one's self against a criminal with no consequences be they either criminal or civil. And if a bad guy happens to die every now and again, well "America" won't miss them.

This isn't the norm in all of America, and to some this attitude is insane (I know because I explained it to a young Welsh woman once and she blanched and called me crazy, my fiancee's family thinks I'm nuts and they're from Massachusetts).

So where would Sweden find itself, would killing criminals be "shocking" to the moral and conscious fabric of their society. As some have said in the past, even on this website, should an act of robbery or theft result in a "death sentence." Because lets face it, guns can kill, maim, cripple, and ruin lives when in the hands of certain persons, even well-intending persons. Can Sweden's populace accept that.

Amongst my brethren (some of who are doctors, lawyers, businessmen, business owners), if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you act as a criminal then you have no right to be upset should your reward be six feet under or a life paralyzed from the neck down with your entire survival dependent on your respirator still working. I can accept that, but can the folks of Sweden accept that. Criminals have rights, after all we are told they are human beings, and to some these "Criminals" have the right to rob, rape, and murder, and suffer nothing but a life behind bars, fed three square meals a day, no pressure to pay the bills, internet access, reading materials and the free time to enjoy reading, cable television, and access to a whole host of snacks, and free medical care.

Can the folks of Sweden grasp possibly killing these "Criminals" with their guns?

Without being judgemental about another, completely different society's norms, I think the answer is, "no", as evidenced by Sweden's neighbor, Norway's treatment of Anders Behring Breivik.

Scandinavian society has made a moral judgement. Their conclusion it different from the USA, even different from Massachusetts. we can understand their attitude no more than they can understand ours. I cannot pass judgment for them any more than I can accept judgement from them.

The differences in our societies are on more fronts than just firearms ownership, criminal justice or the rights of the individual and how they balance against the individual's responsibility to society.

The grand scheme of things in human societal evolution may yield a definitive answer some day. Maybe. Maybe both societal norms are functional (as opposed to dysfunctional).

Lost Sheep