Mosin Carbine Question

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Texas Colt

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I've been looking at the carbine versions of the Mosin Nagant for a general purpose knock around truck rifle and wondering which one is better, the M38 or the 91/59?

Most of the 38's I've seen have a counterbored barrel where the 59's do not. I understand that the 91/59 is a arsenal produced cut down version of the 91/30.

The question is, which is more accurate, the 38 or the 59? Is there a noticeable difference at 100 yards? Anyone have any experience with these?
 
What is the deal with the counter bored barrels? Almost every 91/30 I've seen does not have rifling until 'bout 3" from the muzzle. The M38's do also, but not the M44's...Anybody what gives?
 
I would go with the M-38 or M-44 strictly for the shorter barrel. It seems to me it would be easier to maneuver in and out of a truck.

Do not know about counter bore or or lack of rifling. My M-44 seems to have rifling all the way through.

The biggest point in choosing a particular gun once you have settled on the barrel lenght issue is to look for one with original matching numbers.
 
My 38 shoots better than my 91, but I think it is because the 91's barrel is in bad shape. I told one of the guys at the range concerning my 91: "Ivan was a communist. He heard that 'cleanliness is next to Godliness', and since he didn't believe in God, he figured there was no need to clean his gun."

I really like the 38.
 
I read somewhere that the counter boring was to help improve accuracy. Have no idea how or if it would do any good. Maybe they were having problems with damaged crowns and thought this would help.

Love my M44 so far plenty accurate and fun to shoot. Would like an M38 for the lack of the bayonet which serves no purpose to me anyway.
 
Barrels are counterbored to remove the worn rifleing from the muzzle caused by cleaning rod wear. they are no more or less accurate.
 
In this thread of Mosin owners, you will find that counterboring doesn't seem to negatively affect accuracy:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=222027

It's just like any of the MNs. Some of them have been shot to hell and back with corrosive ammuntion, and even if they haven't been counterbored, the bore diameter is too large or the rifling is worn throughout the barrel, etc.

Don't be afraid to try out a Mosin with counterboring, especially if the rest of the bore looks good. My understanding is that the muzzle end would get trashed because of the practice of cleaning with a steel rod from that end.

jm
 
I'll go for the 91/59 carbine. Though it is pretty much the same as M38, it has a rear sight of 91/30 with slight modification on the leaf. Should you decie to use a scope mount, it has more options. You can also remove the rear sight base and weld a weaver rail or scope rings on it and put it back on.
There shouldn't be any difference in accuracy between the 91/59 and M38 if both rifles are perfect. But personally I would stay away from counter-bored muzzle for the simple reason that I want to be able to re-crown the muzzle of my rifles if I choose to do so.
 
A 91/59 is a shortened 91/30...

the barrel is a bit heavier and the bore will, most likely, be good. No one seems to know who did this modification or when. A 91/59 will cost more than a M38. Just get a M44 and remove the bayonet. They can be had in new condition....chris3
 
It probably depends on the individual rifle. I bought three 91/59s from AIM when they were $70 each. That was about the same price as M38s at the time. Now they are quite a bit more than M38s.

If you want a unique Mosin carbine for the collection, the 91/59 might be the one for you. If you just want a good shooter, just buy whichever has the best bore and don't forget to check the throat. They might have cut the 91/59s down or counterbored the 1938s, but I don't think they set 'em back and rechambered if the throat was opened up.
 
The counterboring per se is no less accurate than a crown at the end of the muzzle. But it was usually done to carbines that were in bad shape, and in some cases was combined with fresh rifling cut which is why you get the larger and larger size bores. With M-38's it's usually a sign it was used hard and rearsenaled back to life. But it doesn't always mean it's going to be less accurate. Most, if not all, the Polish M-44's are slightly counterbored, but this appears to have been done intentionally to protect the crown from any contact with the bayonet base.
 
Hope you guys can help me out here, fairly quickly by the way. I have an opportunity to purchase three Mosins, a 91/30, a M38, and a M44 all with clean, bright bores, sharp rifling in all, the 91/30 and M38 have been counter bored, the M44 not. Along with these, he has a Yugo M48, in pristine shape, perfect bore, very few handling dings on the stock. All four come with slings and bayonettes (mounted on the M44), oilers and cleaning rods. The whole shi-bang goes for $500, he will give me until 5 CST today, otherwise he has a buyer for the M38 and he would not take less than $425 for the other three rifles (91/30, M44, and the M48 Mauser).

Need opinions pretty quick, my history of these Milsurps are pretty weak.
 
If all the numbers match, go for it. I just bought an M44 and love it to death. Lots of fun to shoot and fairly accurate. I guess I'd reccomend the M44 as a truck gun. You can get rid of the bayonet if you're so inclined.
 
OTH,
I don't know what M48's are going for now, but the 3 Mosins should be worth $300 or so. With all the accessories, and with excellently clean and shiny bores, I think it would be $500 well spent. All-in-all, it sounds like a fair price.

You're not getting a screaming deal, but you're not getting cheated. If you want 'em, get 'em. You'll probably be glad you did.

TIEBREAKER: Ask yourself which is more likely: Waking up tomorrow with $500 and wishing you had 4 milsurp rifles OR waking up tomorrow with 4 milsurp rifles and wishing you had $500. Let us know what you decide.
RT
 
Lots of good info. Thanks guys.

I haven't seen many Mosins in the local shops lately so I'll probably be buying on line.

I've seen several M38s on the on-line auctions, but not many 59s. I like the idea of the 59 having a heavier barrel and being a little more rare. I've always been a sucker for the unique stuff. The search is on!
 
id say its worth 500.
Whole sale it would be pretty close to that, depending on years and conditions. plus shipping and FFL.
 
Texas Colt
I've seen several M38s on the on-line auctions, but not many 59s. I like the idea of the 59 having a heavier barrel and being a little more rare. I've always been a sucker for the unique stuff. The search is on!
the search is over. Century Arms just imported a bunch of them. range from 100$ with a crack stock and up.
 
mosin nagants

I would pick the M-44. it's accurate(as long as you extend the bayonet) trust me on this. My 91/30's are accurate but I'm not hearing that the M-38 are that accurate.(because they took off the bayonet) I've had several m-44's and they are all accurate. or as accurate as the 91/30's . I have a friend who has several m38's and he's not happy with their accurately. I'm also hearing from friends about the muzzel counter boring, The guns that have that aren't as accurate as without counter boring.
I just got my southern Ohio guns cat. and your cost would/could be around $100 to $125.00 for a m-44.
If your around south east Tx. I could sell you one for that. ok, I'm a dealer. Pat
 
pakmcc has got some misconceptions...

The M38 isn't a M44 with the bayonet taken off. It was actually the first carbine version of the M91/30, and preceded the M44. There were other, rare, earlier carbines based on the M91 (M1907 comes to mind), but the M38 was the first one based on the 91/30.

I have found the M38 to be very accurate - but this varies greatly depending on the rifle, of course. The M38s were used heavily and it's almost impossible to find a "clean" one. Almost all were rearsenaled, sometimes with M44 stocks; this brings me to counterboring.

The counterboring (making a new crown 1-3" inches from the muzzle) has nothing to do with accuracy, EXCEPT it was also often paired with re-rifling the barrel. This increases the bore size, which means that standard ammo will then be slightly out of spec - shooting a .311 bullet through a .313 bore, for example. This can be remedied by slugging the bore and using different bullets, of course. Some re-rifled barrels have bores as large as .318, though this is a worst case scenario and is uncommon.

That said, I have a counterbored M38 that will shoot circles around unissued M44s, with standard surplus ammo. It tends to prefer light-ball, especially the 147-grain Hungarian silvertip. I never slugged the bore, since the accuracy was good enough that I never needed to worry about it. Last time at the range I was with TWO experienced shooters with "mint" (as much as possible, anyway) M44s, one was getting 6MOA at 100 yards, the other 3.5MOA. Neither was particularly happy with this. I now get a consistent 2" at 100 yards with the M38, and occasionally slightly better.

That said, I think the M44 is the best bet here, with the M91/59 in second place, because of your needs - for a rifle that will be knocked around a fair bit in a truck, for general use etc. The M38 is fairly uncommon, and prized enough among collectors that they would make a poor candidate for a rifle to just beat the hell out of - unless it was in rough shape to begin with. They command a premium when in decent shape.

The M44 is, pardon the expression, common as dirt and you'd never have to worry about any devaluation. I'm less familiar with the 91/59, but I would say that as an equally uncommon variant of the Mosin, it probably also would do better outside of the truck.

You should be able to find an M44 for about $80 - for example, Wideners.com has them for that - if you have your FFL or C&R. Worth considering.
*edit* - AIM has M44s for $70, M38 (with rearsenaled M44 stock) for $80. J&G has the M44 for $80 also.
 
I bought a M38 as my first Mosin-Nagant, it started a fever. Now I won 6 or 7 Mosin's now, to include a chrome one. I have even eased up one one w/ SA stamp, Finnish Capture. It even has the D-cartridge stamp on it. Oh - yes - did I tell you - I paid all of $25.00 for it.
 
I'm leaning toward getting the 91/59 with the M38 as a second choice. I don't need a bayonet and I don't like the idea of athe mount getting snagged on things if I remove the bayonet.

I tend to baby my guns - even my truck guns are kept in cases and get cleaned regularly.

My greatest concern is ordering from an on-line company. I know that AIM, Century, Wideners, etc. are reputable companies but my concern is getting a gun with an excellent bore above all other qualities. I guess I'll give them a call on Monday to see about a hand-select gun.
 
I tend to baby my guns - even my truck guns are kept in cases and get cleaned regularly.

In that case, any of the above will suit you just fine. If it was up to me, I would pick another M38 over a M91/59; just personal preference on how they weigh and handle.

I guess it's just about availability of a good bore at this point! Good luck with your search; keep us posted.
 
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