Mosin Experts Needed. M91 Remington 1917

[Ohio Gun Guy]

One more on the hardwood.....shows "Real" color better.

 

[Cosmoline]

54r.net shows some Austrian swivels with a nail-like rod in lieu of a screw. I was just trying to rule it out.

Now I see a "B" on the stock. Not sure what the heck that is. It doesn't match any markings I know of. It's very different from thee Hungarian "B"

Yours is just weird. I can't see anything Finnish about this rifle. The Finns captured many rifles and had lots of parts, but they never just threw them together. You can tell a Finn not just by the markings but by the extra care taken in the little touches like sights. This one has no SA, no struck off Arshin marks, no Finn front sight, and the swivel doesn't go with standard Finnish slings. It would bend the leather up in a semicircle and tend to cause it to tear. All my instincts are against this being a Finn.

But that doesn't rule out capture and re-issue by some other nation. A bunch of them had stores of Mosins and used them in both world wars.

I think you should disassemble your rifle and do a detailed scouring for any markings that don't match typical Soviet or US standards.

Here's some interesting comments from a new article on mn.net

Slots with Swivels

In addition to the early pattern swivels which were mounted on the magazine well and top barrel band of the pre 1908 rifles, sling swivels were also used by the Russians within the sling slots of post 1908 Three-Line-Rifles, Cossack, Dragoon and Cavalry carbines. For many years, collectors in the U.S. have wrongfully believed that ALL metal swivels, which are found mounted within the slots of original Russian rifles, were added in Finland. It is understandable why this myth became fact to a large number of collectors. So many of the rifles that came into the U.S. from Finland had seen service all over Europe during WWI! Naturally, collectors assumed that all of the variations, which arrived from Finland, were attributable to the Finns. This is definitely not the case! While there is a pattern of swivel, which was designed and introduced by the Finns, it is very specific in design. These swivels appear to be cast, as there is a visible parting line, which runs around the top and bottom of the midpoint of the swivel. The Finnish swivels are made in separate sizes for the top and bottom slots. They are mounted via a screw, which passes through the swivel on one end and screws through the threaded tip on the other side of the slot. These swivels follow the contour of the stock very closely around the side of the stock, at which point they then turn away from the stock to form a bearing surface for the standard 1 1/2” wide Finnish sling.

From here, the use of metal swivels mounted within sling slots becomes difficult to follow and verify. This is due to the fact that so many of the surviving rifles saw service with so many different armies! The identification of each type of swivel, when it was added to the rifle and by whom, becomes very difficult. There is ample photographic evidence to confirm the use of metal swivels mounted through the sling slots by Russia, Serbia, Germany and Austria during WWI. In addition, so many weapons were captured and reissued by both sides during the war! It is impossible to tell if the swivels in the slots of the rifles which, are found in wartime photographs, were added by the army shown in the photo, or by someone else from whom the weapon was subsequently captured! Despite this, there are some styles of metal and wire swivel, which can be traced to particular countries, based on combined evidence provided in the photographic record and on rifles found in both private collections and museums. At this point, it will perhaps be easier to deal with the identifiable patterns on a country by country basis.

http://www.mosinnagant.net/ussr/Mosin-Nagant-Sling-Section-M91.asp

 

[caribou]

A lot of Remington M-91 configured rifles went to the Socialists in Spain during the Spanish civil war.
The Russians would have rehabbled it into a complete M91/30, rear sight base and stock, shortend barrel, ect.
The Finns would have restocked it as a standard M/91 ( or M-24 , the Finn version) and both slots would have had sling swivles made on the same Finn patter, which it is not.
The Spanish refurbed Mosins with parts on hand, from busted guns and such. The Finns and Russians had factorys making their parts,stocks,ect. Spain had cottage type industries that made theirs (blacksmiths, kids, like Afghanistan), as well as Pistols (The "Ruby " series for example) and putting a 91/30 stock on a 91 action would be about right, and the 'Smith made rear sling swivles look alot like that.
If it were kept in the US, it would have U.S. Ord bombs and Remington eagles all over, and when Imperial Russia went Keel over, our Army issed them as training rifles for recruits who overwhelmed our training grounds when we enterd the 1st WW......we actually adopted them with the designation of Modle of 1916, yes, the first M-16!!! ~~LOL!!~~
Does the end of the barrel have an import mark? Spain sold loads of them in the 50's to Interarms. The Finns did too, but a "D" mark or "SA" would be around, or at least the rear sight being struk with Finn Meters over the Arshin numbers.

I vote Spanish Civil War

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I've been all over it with a flashlight. I dont see any import marks. There are 2 additional circle R (Remington) stamps on it one on the sight base and one on the Barrel on the right side at the wood line (Slightly obscured by rust).

Thanks for the time and information. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it....... I was making trades trying to downsize my "Old" military rifles & this didnt help! .

Last question: What is the value of this beast?
Pro's:
Its a really low serial number (47,4XX) Remington M91
Its unique, and has probably been there, done that.

Cons:
God only knows the history of this non standard configuration rifle.
It's not a pristine example

 

[Cosmoline]

Value is tough. It could be worth $150 at most if it's just parts tossed together in the recent past. And I'd say that's what it was if it weren't for that strange old swivel.

I'd suggest posting photos of the swivel over on the collector's forum at M-N.net. See if someone recognizes that design. It may be that it's one of the rare swivels used by the Soviets, or that it's the swivel of some obscure nation that had some captures. Or it could just be some really old aftermarket job, though it sure looks like it dates to the stock at least.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Cosmoline and others who posted, thanks for all the info. THis has been fun. I'll let you know if I find out more.

Now I need another really old rifle......

 

[caribou]

Heres a couple observations;

#1
the barreled action was obviously accepted into Russian service, with the acceptance marks that are stuck into it, so that baby went to Russia at one time.
Russian and Finn refurbs are usually "Scrubbed" and the double eagle was mlled or peend off, as both Soviet Russia and Finnland broke away from/overthrew the Imperial govornment.
Most European captures/purchased captures have a "capture mark" like Pinecones, Bears, "W" , "AZF" "SA" and the like....not all, but most.

The barreld action made it into the US prior to 1968, as it lacks import marks.

#2
The stock, being a 91/30 stock, was made no earlier than 1931, when M-91/30 varients when the Soviets brought them into production.

The Soviets were the only manufacturers of 91/30's.

Besides the Soviets, there were only two other countrys that got ahold of 91/30's before WWII, and your screw in sling estucions show its a pre 1941 stock.
The Finns rehabbled thousands, with Tikka providing barrels if the original was replaced.A Triangle with a "T" and a Finn spliced stock was a rehab feature aswell, as just being marked "SA" and used as is, so theres many varialtions along that line.

As well, the Finns bought 91/30's from the Germans during the Contenuation War, when the Germans join'd Finnland in their war against Russia.

The Soviets "Gave" the Spanish boatloads of both M91 and M91/30's, and the went onto "lose" quite a few thousand to the Finn's in the Winter war, those two countrys being the only ones outside of the Soviet Union that obtained 91/30's that could have donated the stock.
Both Spain and Finnland added sling swivils into the existing slots, but the Finns were made to a manufactured Pattern, the Spanish were rather Adhoc.

In the 50's The Spanish dump all their Mosins, and carried on manufacturing their Mausers and 8mm ammo. The Finns dumped their surplus Rifles in the 50's, but because they were "restricted" by the Soviets after the War in army size, and ammounts of rifles, cannon, and such, so they sold Interarms the cast offs, keeping the "Good ones "

Sometime, and we wish we knew "when" the 91 was restocked into a 91/30 stock, most likely as an expediant repair.
How this came to be, where and when, we will never know.

150$ for such is very reasonable, as its a mismatch, unknown, and would never get past "Hobbled together". The Remington manufacture is what floats it up above 100$

Hows the bore?

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareSCWRemington.htm

I think Spanish Civil War (See Above)
Reasons:
1. Of all the guns & Capture types it Just looks like the one at the link above.
2. Same pitting, heavy wear (Many of the Finnish guns I googled had very good finish, bluing, & retained matched parts)
3. Completely Mismatched
4. No Finnish markings (Or US, Austrian, etc.)
5. Similar sling swivel, rear only
6. "Sanded Stock" completely lacking a varnish finish.
7. Explains the no import mark


The only thing lacking is a Spanish stamp, but I think its the most likely.

Page 323 of the book linked here, shows Spanish unit marks, the same as the "B" "1" on the left hand side of the M91.....http://books.google.com/books?id=Kl...epage&q="spanish civil war" cartouche&f=false

 

[jpwilly]

I think you've got this pegged. I'd go with Spanish Civil War rifle too.

 

[XxWINxX94]

IRC, the Remington is substantially more valuable than the Russian ones.

Very True. Could be due to the fact that there were far less ones American made than the Russians.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Excelent.....now who wants to buy it.....

 

[GhostlyKarliion]

I might bite, PM me what you want for it