Mosin Nagant Questions

[Bobson]

Sorry if this is a really basic question. I don't really know what the primary differences are between the more venerable Mosin Nagant rifles. Having said that, I might not even know which Mosins are considered "venerable."

I'm thinking of the 91/30, the M38, and the M44. From what I understand (and ofc I concede this may not be accurate at all), the M39 isn't an actual "Mosin" - but was built and designed by a Finnish maker. Luckily (or unluckily?) I don't know where I can find an M39 anyway, so it's not something I'm concerning myself with.

From what I know, the 91/30 is the longer, "full size" rifle, while the M38 and M44 are carbines. From what I understand, the only difference between the M38 and M44 is the M44 has the attached bayonet on a hinge near the muzzle, like the Russian SKS.

Are there other differences I need to be aware of before selecting one of the three to buy? Money's tight and I'd like to pick one of these three rifles up for range fun and possibly light (very light) deer and elk hunting - but the hunting bit is more of a hope and dream than a certainty.

I'd leave whichever rifle I buy pretty much exactly as it arrives. No sporterizing, no mounting a scope - I'll adjust the front sight as needed, but that's it.

Which of the three would be best suited for my interests described above? Are the carbines accurate enough for hunting out to 200-250 yards or so despite the chopped barrel, providing I do my part? I had always heard Mosins are awfully inaccurate, but I recently came into knowledge that just isn't true.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Fred_G]

I would just get the basic 91/30. I may be wrong, but my understanding is the Finn guns are just refurbed by the Fins. And are reputed to be better guns.

If you want a really accurate bolt action, look for used Rem 700 or Savage bolt guns.

If you want a fun piece of history that you can shoot, get a Mosin. The only adjustment on the front sight on a stock Mosin would be filing it down, or adding shrink wrap or something to make it taller.

They are fun, everyone should have at least one. Mine is a Tula hex made in 1930. 83 year old gun I shoot sometimes at a friend's private range. For the money I spent, I have gotten more than enough giggles out of it.

 

[bluekouki86]

The M39 Finnish variant of the M/N are rifles that were captured on the battlefield from the Russians, then reworked and returned to service by the Finnish. I have many variants of these rifles and can say the M39 is well worth the extra money. The stock, sights, and trigger are MILES ahead of the crude Russian work. Mine will shoot MOA groups at 100 yards and me holding it.

 

[Whacked]

mosins are combat accurate. then again, THR member Caribou shows us all they are better than that.

any of the MN will suit your purposes fine. Some may need a little TLC to get better groupings but heck, they are cheap rifles so that can be expected. Smith Sights makes front sights (still need to get a order in), crsurplusspring has NOS Finnish trigger/sear springs - well worth the price. I installed them and have no need to do the trigger mod to elimiate slack. heck you even have some options for stock replacement.

I have a 91/30 and a M44. I love them both equally.

 

[caribou]

First, the M-39 is all Mosin Nagant, but taken by the Finns, who broke away from Mother Russia during the October Revolution, took the M-91 with them (it was what filled their armories)and through nothing but improvements brought the Mosin to perfection in both battle and competition type rifles. They rebarreled, resighted and restocked what they could, but it is an evolution in the family of Mosin and its variations.

It all started with the M-91 , that was the full length rifle. The Dragoon was a shorter version, for mounted infantery, the 1907 Carbine was even shorter.
Then the Revolution came and things began to change.
With improved metric sights installed, the Dragoon length version was adopted as standard by the Soviets as the M-91/30. The carbine version was adopted as the M-38, and later in 1943 the M-44 carbines were feilded, basicly M-38s with a permently mounted side folding bayonett. Sniper rifles were only made in the 91/30 configurations.
After Finland broke off from Russia in 1919, they had what was at hand, what they captured from the Red Armys, rehabbed and bought captured Mosins and parts from the post war European countries that had them for sale or trade. They establish a refurbishment and improvement program that resultd in the M-24 series of Mosins, and in parralle with their Civil Guard refurnished worn out actions into very accurate and handy M-27 and M-28 versions. The Civil Guard up graded the sight on the M-28 to the M-28/30 version with improved sights, and when the Russians invaded in 39 they were just starting up the M-39 version as a rifle both martial branches would adopt, and use in the Contenuation war and did so while battling the Soviets a second time.
They also captured and refurbished the battle feild pick ups back into useable rilfes again, by the pound and by the ton.

Most all other countries tha made the Mosin Nagant did it either as a contract to Imperial Russia,in its original M-91 form, and later , after WWII as a satalight in the Soviet Block manufacturing Soviet pattern weapons.

The M-39 is a proven most accurate Mosin Variation, and is a bit pricy, the M91/30 is very good as it is, and 1/2 the base price of an M-39, but still , the M91/30 is a very accurate rifle with good ammo and a stedy shooter squeezing the trigger.Some need tweeking and some smothing, but little more, and all need to be clean.

#1 rule of Mosin Nagant; Keep it clean!

With good ammo, the carbines are accurate to 300 yards over open sights for hunting purposes. The M-44 can feel lobsided when being carried, I did preferr the M-38 for utility, and the fact that its carried 99% more than its shot, so a handy gun it was indeed.....but I live on wide open Tundra and the longer M91/30 is along the lines more to the local needs, as its range and the sights being more distant from each other makes for more precise shooting, in my opinion and useage.

I miss shooting the Carbines for sure, even just targeting, they give a good roar and a shove.


Ive always kept in mind that that only accurate rifles are interestin', while the wife would collect them all, and shoot 'em too.

 

[Bobson]

Thanks for all the replies. I was especially hoping you would respond, caribou, as I know you depend on these rifles for your livelihood. I definitely appreciate the input from everyone.

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

Don't be too scared a dark bore.

When they come out of cosmoline sometimes they don't look so great. Even if the bore looks dark do not despair, they have shined up for me and get better with cleaning and shooting.

I don't think it matters which one you get. The 1891/30 will be the cheaper version.

 

[Scooter22]

If moneys tight get the 91/30. They're as accurate as the carbines. They also have a longer sight radius which helps with open sights. Look for a early hex receiver model. They are generally finished better than war year rifles. The Finns are a step up but 3 times the cost. I have about 20+ Mosins covering most models. A 1929 Isevsky hex 91/30 goes to the range the most. I can hit clay pigeons almost everytime at 100 yds with 150gr Albanian ball. 1 1/2 -2" 5 shot groups on paper. Plenty good to hit a deer. Theres some good heavy hunting loads for bigger stuff.

 

[denton]

The Mosin is every man's basic knock around low cost rifle, often about $125.

The cartridge is in the 308 to 30-06 class for power, which is a nice neighborhood.

Bore diameter varies quite a bit, especially with the Russian versions. Practically all the Finnish M39s slug at .310", though I have one that surprised me at .3117".

My eyes are 69, so I bought Mojo sights for mine. They help a lot, and they are easy to install.

Personally, I don't know how people can stand to shoot cheap surplus ammo. S&B brass is reloadable, though often poorly annealed.

Many of the M38s and M44s were counterbored to restore accuracy. That means that the last half inch or so of the bore was drilled/reamed out. I always shied away from those, but have since heard that they are some of the more accurate Mosins.

The carbines will give you impressive muzzle flash. You can dazzle your friends.

IIRC, the original factory spec on Russian Mosins was 4 MOA. Some are much better than that. The Finnish M39 is arguably the best of the lot. They put good barrels on Russian receivers, did some trigger work, and shimmed the receiver to float the barrel. One of the Finns' first actions of the war was to sack a Russian arsenal to get receivers, triggers, stocks, etc.

The other low cost alternative is a Yugo M48 or 24/47 Mauser in 8x57, often about $175-200. They are not so much sought after, because they are an intermediate length action, and can't be made into a 30-06 or 270. However, they are fine just as they are (or with Mojo sights). They do make up into great 7x57 or 6.5x55 rifles if you ever decided to do custom work.

It's not that much more money to get into an entry level commercial rifle.

 

[Scooter22]

Denton added some great info if you want to look for something other than a Mosin. The 91/30 is the cheapest hi power rifle around. The surplus ammo is still pretty cheap. The Mausers are also great guns at a very good price. The 8x57 with ammo loaded to it's true specs is as good as a 30-06. Not the Win or Rem loads that are weak so they are safe in the oldest guns. If you shop around on auction sites you can find modern used rifles like Savage, Stevens, ect for around 300.00. But a cheap 91/30 with good commercial loads in 150, 180, or 200gr loads will kill anything in North America.

 

[Shadow 7D]

With current prices, you would be better served by any of the entry level guns by Remchester... by the time you spend the money and time to do them LIKE THEY COME FROM WALMART, you will have exceeded the cost of a new gun....

 

[stubbicatt]

With current prices, you would be better served by any of the entry level guns by Remchester... by the time you spend the money and time to do them LIKE THEY COME FROM WALMART, you will have exceeded the cost of a new gun....

Really? Your experience varies from mine considerably. Granted, I got into the M/N when they were $80, but I brought mine home. I disassembled it, cleaned it, I mean really cleaned it... so cost of materials there may have hit $20.

Then I reassembled it. And I've shot it ever since. It helped that the ammo was less than $.10 a round too. Ammo is a bit more these days, but one CAN find x54r online. Other chamberings, maybe not so much.

Oh... And the Walmart's hereabouts do not sell Mosin Nagants.

 

[caribou]

They are not "Cheap" in quality, only price.
Built by low paid labor in a fixed price society,quality and quotas were met, or it would be prison/pistol to the neck for failure............ then inherited bythe present state for free and sold cheap because there are a good percentage of the 17 million made that survived 2 world wars and a hodge podge of giveaways and sell outs.....they have no use or them and have lots of them and they cannot be given away to insergents, freedom fighters or anything Communist because the AK is so prevelent.

The collector/user market in our Free Economy sets the price according to availabilty, quantity and desirabilty.
The desireabilty is high, but not the quantity anymore, so prices are going up and finding them is getting harder.....

 

[denton]

shot it ever since

They are a rifle that takes a licking and keeps on ticking. If you get one in decent condition, and take care of it, it will never be worth less than what it is today.

They are heavy and ugly.

They are also rugged, dependable, powerful, accurate enough for common purposes, and very low in cost.

My opinion is that they ought to be left pretty much in their original condition, or only modified slightly. They aren't a good platform for investing in upgrades. The three upgrades that I would consider are some bubba trigger work (which is easy and free), floating the barrel (also easy and free) and, as I mentioned, Mojo sights.

My first choice would be a Finnish M39, because it's a high quality Mosin. (Well, actually, I would go for an M27 which is the carbine version. They are currently made of unobtainium.) My second choice would be an M38 because it's lighter. If you can't get the M38, then get the M44 and tolerate the bayonet lug. Either of those is the quintessential "truck gun". YMMV.

One of these days I'm going to get a mold for .313" cast bullets and make some 2000 FPS handloads.

 

[ball3006]

Go to 7.62x54r.net and all your questions will be answered......chris3

 

[Bobson]

Go to 7.62x54r.net and all your questions will be answered......chris3

I'll go there next. I'm the new owner of a 91/30 as of earlier today. I need to read up on cleaning the cosmoline properly. The one I grabbed looked like it was in great condition, can't wait to get it to the range.

Thanks again for the responses here.

 

[caribou]

For your first cleaning, pay ALOT of attention to removeing the 60+ year cosmoline out of the chamber. Often it is HARD, bright abd shiney, but can ause constriction in your chambering a round(hard close), can cause "Sticky bolt"(hard open) can cause you a gooy time when heated by the barrel.

The chamber is the heart of the rifle, if its bad, the rifles bad. They really cosmo'd the chambers for storage, and I personally used to use a dip of solvent, break cleaner, carb cleaner or gasoline on a 20 bore shotgun brush and go at iit, slow and sted. Then chuck the rod section into a cordless and go again. This takes a few minutes and a few flushs and scrubs and the chamber will be ready for action and easier to clean after shooting.

If you have trouble with the shellac (its there to protect the wood like the cosmo protects the metal) mineral spirts will wipe it down, linseed oil wiped on, sit a bit then wiped off will do. Basicly the Soviets let the shellac wear and oiled the stock as needed.

Wipe down the rest and be sure your magizine is free of glops that can goop you out later (had that :banghead:....Once....)

Have fun with yer 91/30, they are awsome!!!

 

[Bobson]

Thanks man. Hopefully I'll be able to set a few hours aside tomorrow afternoon and clean it; otherwise I might have to wait until Tuesday.

 

[Scooter22]

Congrats on your Mosin purchase. Mineral spirits(paint thinner) works great for dissolving cosmo. If your chamber is sticky you can use a brass bore brush on a segment of cleaning rod chucked in a hand drill. Dip it in solvent and spin it in the chamber. Not hi RPM. Just fast enough to clean it. If the shellac stock finish is good but flaky/chipping lightly wipe it clean with denatured alcohol.(this dissolves shellac). Let it dry and spray a couple new coats on. Shellac will melt itself and form a new surface. Once you get the finish sealed and built up you can take 4/0 steel wool dipped in BLO to knock the gloss down and give it the warm satin finish many old Mosins have.

 

[Bobson]

I finished cleaning it a while ago. Used mineral spirits and a bit of wd-40, Hoppes, several dozen q-tips, a few rags, and lots of elbow grease. I had the entire rifle disassembled for the process, and got it cleaned up beautifully. I love how it turned out, and the nice dark color of the stock. I'm mighty pleased with it.

I'll get some pictures up later tonight; but advance warning - I'm no photographer.

 

[Fred_G]

Awesome, look forward to the picts. Enjoy shooting it, and don't be afraid of old surplus ammo, just make sure you clean it right if you shoot corrosive ammo in it.

To this day I still kinda freak out pouring boiling water down a gun barrel...

How do you like the safety on that rifle?

 

[Bobson]

Its stiff lol. Interesting though.

Idk if this is common but when I removed the barreled action, there was a little retention pin in the trigger which fell out. I couldn't find it and ended up making a new one out of a chopped nail. Then found it when I was replacing the action.

 

[Bobson]

When I was cleaning it, I did find two small (roughly dime sized) patches of very superficial rust on the external of the barrel, underneath the little slab of thin wood about 12" behind the front sight. Other than that, the small scratches at the back of the right side of the butt-stock, and another small scratch on the left side of the stock just above the magazine, the rifle's in excellent shape aesthetically. I'm no gunsmith but it seemed great inside too. Barrel looked great, but we'll see how she shoots later this week.

 

[Bobson]

Here are the last four pics, three of which show the matching serial numbers stamped on the receiver, bolt, and magazine baseplate. I don't know if that's significant but people seem to mention serial numbers often when discussing Mosins.

 

[bluekouki86]

Sweet, got a Tula. I've always been partial to the Tula made rifles. I've got a Tula M44 that I adore. Nice buy.