Mosin Nagant Revolver

[Hardware]

Nagant Revolver

I see in the latest Shotgun News that there are a bunch of Nagant revolvers going for next to nothing. Anybody have any experience with these? The adds say that the guns are chambered for 7.62 Nagant but will chamber and fire 32 H&R magnum. Again, any insite into the safety of firing the different cartridge?

 

[RyanM]

The double action trigger is 20 pounds, and single action is about 13. .32 magnums will chamber and fire, but you may get split cases. .32 Longs may be safer. One source says the original load for the Nagant was a 108 gr .295" bullet at 725 fps. A .312" bullet loaded to a nominal 1100 fps may be disasterous.

 

[BillinNH]

FWIW, it's the Nagant revolver. Mosin was not involved , just with the rifle.

Bill

 

[RON in PA]

The source( Gun Digest Cartridges of the World) of the .295 bullet is wrong, for instance Fiocci factory Nagant ammo bullets are .308 and 32 longs and magnums are .311-.312. I've shot hundreds of 32 mags in mine and you will get case expansion, but at the case mouth only. People have been shooting the 32s in the Nagant for a number of years now without reported problems other than case expansion.

 

[Cosmoline]

It's just a NAGANT, not a Mosin. After the Belgian fellow. Indeed a lot of Belgian revolvers of that vintage, and also some Scandinavian ones, were Nagant style. They're primal hunks of iron, but fun. I've had no problems firing .32 H&R Mags out of mine in the past. They're a nice one to get as a conversation piece, though a lot have big importer stamps on the side that are very annoying. They also make a handy snake gun for the glove box. The Germans used to call them "Ivan Revolvers" and the name fits pretty well.

 

[donkee]

They are fun to shoot and ammo can be handloaded cheaply. I have one from SOG with the HUGE century billboard import stamp and another from Cole's that has the tiny import marks. The pre war (1936) has a much better trigger pull in both SA and DA than my wartime (1944) one. I have no problem getting minute of rabbit accuracy with either.........

 

[Stainz]

The Nagant brothers, Belgium's answer to J.M. Browning, were prolific to say the least. The 1895 Nagant revolver is a marvel of Victorian engineering. It is held together by one screw, which is also used to trap the hammer during lockwoork dissassembly. It's operation is simple - the trigger is pulled - admittedly with much effort - to rotate the 7-shot cylinder, charge the long firing pinned hammer, move the cylinder forward to gas seal it's concave chamber exits against the barrel's convex terminus (The opposite of the usual concave forcing cone.), place a breech block agaist the case's rim for support, and lock the cylinder before dropping the hammer. That excess work is at a price - the DA and SA trigger efforts are generally over 20 lb. I do have to tell folks to keep pulling my Nagants' trigger... insuring them it really is a DA.

The proper ammo, 7.62 x 38r, is currently only available as Russian non-reloadable or Fiocchi, which is a bit pricey. So loaded, it is fun... but the long case, which is intended to extend from said concave cylinder exit and bridge the miniscule gap to the convex barrel end, results in a difficult extraction, due to said case mouth expanding to allow passage of the recessed bullet. I have chrono-ed the Russian target ammo (~98gr LDEWC), at ~590 fps, with the Fiocchi (98gr DEWC) making 674 fps - both ammos exhibiting a small standard deviation (The gas seal works!). Proper Nagant brass is available... some is a tad short, however. Lee reportedly is reportedly changing their die set to use the recent brass - but their 'old' set is still available.

The chamber of the Nagants is tapered - wider in front of the small overlapping rim than at the mouth. While the bullet and powder in a .32 S&WL or H&RM may be useable, the case is too small at the rim end... the bullets won't lie coaxially within the chamber, and will bulge and split, especially the softer cased Magtech 98 gr LRN .32 S&WL, The stouter cased, and hot, Georgia Arms 100gr JHP .32 H&RM's also bulge - both types to the point that the .32 brass is not reloadable. But, what do you expect... it aint the right size! Of course, some distributor still suggest it... An aftermarket .32 ACP cylinder is sometimes available - but it may require fitting, as the parts of these revolvers are all co-serialized, indicating the hand-fitting common to yesteryear.

I, and other reloaders, have found great success with .32-20 brass - mine is sized through a carbide M1 Carbine die, while others will use the proper sized Lee steel die (... from that earlier die set.). Loading is completed with .32 components/dies. I get 100gr LDEWC and 83/85 gr DEWC going from 700-840 fps - and mine drop freely from the chambers, where both the proper size ammo, with it's belled mouth after firing, and the bulged .32 ammo require the Nagants SA-style ejector for extraction.

Despite it's eccentricities, the Victorian marvel is neat. Besides, where else can you get a piece of history, a holster, lanyard, cleaning rod, and, sometimes, a screwdriver - for less than a c-note? Try the gunboards.com 1895 Nagant forum for more info.

Stainz

 

[albanian]

I have one of the WWII ones and I can tell you that the DA trigger is at LEAST 20lbs probably more like 30lbs. Unless my hand is in the right position, I can not pull the trigger. It is pretty bad. The SA is heavy as well but shootable. The DA not shootable and as long as you look at it as a SA only gun, it is not bad. Try and pull that DA trigger and you will hate the gun.

I paid something like $80 for mine but now I see them for $69 all over. For that kind of money, what is to risk? They work but they just might not be as refined as you would like. They are not junk and they will last another 100 years I would guess.

 

[Risasi]

The proper ammo, 7.62 x 38r, is currently only available as Russian non-reloadable or Fiocchi, which is a bit pricey. So loaded, it is fun... but the long case, which is intended to extend from said concave cylinder exit and bridge the miniscule gap to the convex barrel end, results in a difficult extraction, due to said case mouth expanding to allow passage of the recessed bullet. I have chrono-ed the Russian target ammo (~98gr LDEWC), at ~590 fps, with the Fiocchi (98gr DEWC) making 674 fps - both ammos exhibiting a small standard deviation (The gas seal works!). Proper Nagant brass is available... some is a tad short, however. Lee reportedly is reportedly changing their die set to use the recent brass - but their 'old' set is still available.

And because of this I always thought it would be a hoot to take one of these and get the barrel threaded so a suppressor could be used. I don't know about anybody else but nothing irritates me more than seeing in a movie some hitman screw a can on the end of a revolver. Magnum Force comes to mind...

 

[kid_couteau]

Hi Folks

I have three of them.

2 from century 1 from SOG

If you buy from SOG dont bother to pay the handpick charge as they have no gunsmiths there and the bore will not be checked

I got a beautiful nagant from SOG with a rusty bore

The ones from Century had great bores but the outsides were not as pretty.

Havent shot them yet I need to make bullets and load the brass first.

Anyone have load data?

Thank you
Kid

 

[AJ Dual]

It seems like such an anemic round for a battlefield weapon…

But then you realize that the Nagant was probably primarily intended for Russian officers to stick in the ear of conscripts who weren't obeying orders to march headlong into enemy machinegun fire.

For that, it was probably more than adequate.

I'd wager that any "blooded" Nagants have 100/1 odds that they were used on their own countrymen than the enemy from another nation. Although, that says more about the Czars and Stalin, than about the Nagant.

 

[Cosmoline]

The weak powered round was in keeping with early smokeless powder cartridges, including those in use by our own forces durig the dark decade between the fall of the .45 Colt and the rise of .45 ACP.

You forgot to note the main claim to fame of the Nagant--RUSSIAN ROULETTE. During the collapse of the old Empire as their eastern front fell apart, Russian officers started offing themselves at an alarming rate. That's when the game was supposedly invented. Sort of a suicidal drinking game between shamed officers. The Nagant, with its gas seal and long dark cartridge case, makes it a whole lot more difficult to tell the difference between an empty chamber with spent brass and a chamber with a live round. The officers, having fired all but one shot in defense of the Motherland, were to save the last for themselves. And why not have a drink and place bets as part of the process? Plus, the cylinder does not lock up until the revolver is cocked. Before that it can be spun freely without exposing the chambers to the eyes of participants or those placing bets.

That's what I've read, at any rate. It could be complete bunkum, though it does make some sense.

 

[unspellable]

The Nagant and other things

Tha current Russain ammo is a mid-range target load. You will note that it is loaded with a lead full wadcutter. The Nagant has been used for target shooting in the Eastern block. It can display pretty good accuracy after a trigger job. The Fiocchi load is also rather anemic. But then Fiocchi puts up anemic loads in several calibers. Their 7.65 Parabellum load is too wimpy to reliably cycle the action. Bottom line is the service load cranked up cosiderably better velocity.

The Nagant was a favorite with tank crews. When you fire through a porthole you don't have any hot brass bouncing around and you don't get a blast of noise in the confines of the tank. When potting at some one on foot from a tank, one shot stopping power is not quite so high a priority.

The Russians favoured small caliber high velocity rounds because they wanted penetration through log and snow barriers, heavy clothing, etc., something a 45 ACP would not shine at.

The real authentic Russian roulette was a drinking "sport" in the far east of Siberia. The game (after first getting everybody suitably soused) was to pile some chairs on top of a table. One guy would sit on top with a revolver with one cartridge in it. The lights were turned out and the others would crawl around on hands and knees making such noise as they deemed suitable or didn't while the guy on top would point and pull the trigger in the dark.

Experiencing a few far eastern Siberian winters would make this game more understandable.

 

[Cosmoline]

Wikipedia at least would suggest both possibilities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_roulette

The earliest known use of the term is from "Russian Roulette", a short story by Georges Surdez in the January 30, 1937, issue of Collier's Magazine. A Russian sergeant in the French Foreign Legion asks the narrator,

"'Feldheim . . . did you ever hear of Russian Roulette?' When I said I had not, he told me all about it. When he was with the Russian army in Rumania, around 1917, and things were cracking up, so that their officers felt that they were not only losing prestige, money, family, and country, but were being also dishonored before their colleagues of the Allied armies, some officer would suddenly pull out his revolver, anywhere, at the table, in a cafe, at a gathering of friends, remove a cartridge from the cylinder, spin the cylinder, snap it back in place, put it to his head, and pull the trigger. There were five chances to one that the hammer would set off a live cartridge and blow his brains all over the place. Sometimes it happened, sometimes not."

In light of that, I have my doubts about the truth of the story. But who knows, it's a vexed question.

 

[El Barto]

I was looking to get a Nagant, but I can't see spending the money. Even though I have a C&R I can't import handguns, it would have to go thru a broker. So $80 for the gun, $10 for shipping, $50 transfer fee, $20 for the DROS = $160. Unless someone can tell me where I can get one for $95 OTD, I won't be joining the club anytime soon.

As for ammo, Interordnance did some testing and they found:

We have concluded some experiments to determine what other ammunition can be used in the Nagant revolver besides "7.62mm Nagant". Our tests show that these revolvers will work perfectly with caliber ".32 H&R Magnum" jacketed hollow point ammunition as loaded by Federal Cartridge Co. Their item number is C32HRB. The revolver will also fire caliber ".32 Smith & Wesson" and caliber ".32 Smith & Wesson Long" ammunition but we do not recommend it since the use of lead bullets will lead to fouling and cylinder binding. We do not recommend the use of any lead bullet in these three calibers but if jacketed bullets are available, then they should be okay. Caliber ".32 ACP" may work in some revolvers but occasional misfires may be expected.

 

[RyanM]

The Nagant is a seven-shooter. It should be six to one or five to two.

 

[Cosmoline]

Exactly. That's what makes me doubt the story.

 

[ABTOMAT]

When potting at some one on foot from a tank, one shot stopping power is not quite so high a priority.

Not unless the guy you were potting at was carrying a Panzerfaust.

 

[unspellable]

from a tank

<< Not unless the guy you were potting at was carrying a Panzerfaust. >>

Then it's getting serious, you use the machine gun. The Nagant is for casual pot shots while you are subjected to small arms fire.

BTW: The "game" I discribed above is sometimes known as cuckoo.

I found a reference to something similar to pointing the pistol at the head games from the middle of the nineteenth century although with no name attached to it. It's a novel in which a Russian officer does well at the card table. He then makes a remark along the lines of fate determines when your time is up, points a muzzle loading pistol at his head and pulls the trigger. He then points it in a safe and pulls the trigger where upon it goes off, much to the astonishment of the witnesses. Later that night he is killed by a man with a sword.

 

[Stainz]

Load info can be found in the 1895 Nagant forum, along with a lot more info, at gunboards.com. The Nagant was used with a suppressor - and even a bayonet. It probably has more bodies behind it than any other handgun - including the Tsar's family and many of Stalin's generals. All too many Russian 'executions', too. While the Ruskie target ammo is cheap - and slow - the service ammo was 100gr at over 1,000 fps - pretty potent for its time (The similar heritage .38 Special was 158gr at 760 fps.).

These things are neat, but don't cash in an IRA to get one. Remember, dealers don't suggest the .32 H&RM ammo is appropriate, just that it's the closest available, from the 'It kinda fits and goes bang!' school of ammo selection (In their defence, InterOrdnance does have great Nagants - with the importer's info inobtrusively under the barrel.). If you use .32 H&RM ammo, do wear really good eye protection - and don't bother to save the brass, it will be bulged too badly.

Stainz

 

[kid_couteau]

Hi Guys

I dont know how many here are reloaders but you can get the components.

Lee makes a nice mold for bullets

Lee makes dies

Starline makes the brass

Should be able to reload pretty cheap. If you dont mind the extra work.

Kid

 

[AJ Dual]

The Nagant is a seven-shooter. It should be six to one or five to two.

Exactly. That's what makes me doubt the story.

No one said it was a Nagant. There were tons of export S&W's in .44 Russian floating around from the time of the Czars, the Russian Civil War (White vs. Red) and the Bolshevek revolution...

Those would have been six shooters. Plus, the Russians never threw anything away. I would be surprised if some of those old .44's didn't see service in WWII.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's a possibility, but I still have my doubts about the story as a valid account of the origin. It's a work of fiction, and does not claim to be a primary source regarding events at the end of WWI. It may have been nothing more than a creative phrase created in the story to describe the already established suicidal and fatalistic behavior of the Czar's officer corps.

I suspect the game itself, without the name, evolved on its own just as a result of bored people doing stupid things with firearms.

 

[RON in PA]

Here's my take on Russian roulette with the Nagant. I picked up one of my four and dropped the loading lever, well you can't spin the cylinder due to the basic design of the mechanism. If there is any truth to the story of Russian roulette it was done with a revolver other than the Nagant. A S&W Russian, a Colt 1873 or any modern DA revolver, but not a Nagant.

 

[eastwood44mag]

Please tell me the post about a 20# trigger pull was a joke. Seriously, 20# is just twisted and wrong