Mosin-Nagant Rifles finally cool now?

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Interesting. How do you define them as worst made? If you mean ugly and utilitarian, that's ok and I think most folks would agree. But in terms of reliability and function there are very few guns around with the proven track record of the 3 you mentioned. If anything, they tend to be the benchmark again which others are measured.
Poor accuracy, poor metallurgy, poor stocks, poor function, poor reliability for the autos. Poor sights. Poor triggers. Other than the fact that they are physically capable of chambering a round and firing it, it's hard to find any good points on any of the three.
 
They were designed to meet an entirely different series of criteria than those you seem to judge firearms by, Llama Bob. All three designs were made to be rugged enough to be made by marginal workers, designed for massed, generally unaimed fire, needed to be sturdy enough to withstand the ham-handed cleaning, or lack thereof, done by illiterate peasants who had never fired a rifle before conscription, and function in some of the most extreme weather on this planet. And all three have done so admirably. They are not benchrest guns, and none here have intimated that they are.
 
The fact that the guns were designed to be easy to make and were used by illiterate peasants isn't really a good point, unless you happen to a) be trying to make one with limited tools or b) be an illiterate peasant.

Being literate and with little interest in making stamped junk, they don't do much for me. My standards are about the rifle itself, not all that nonsense. And AS RIFLES, the Mosins, SKSs, and AKs suck.
 
...Being literate and with little interest in making stamped junk, they don't do much for me. My standards are about the rifle itself, not all that nonsense. And AS RIFLES, the Mosins, SKSs, and AKs suck.

And being a free country, that's just fine. Chevy, Ford, Mercedes, or Tesla all do the same basic thing. Each have their fans and haters. It's quite alright.

Moving on...

Since obviously some folks are indeed collecting them and those folks put Mosin Nagant rifles in the cool category, what makes a particular variant more desirable? An awful lot of the guns have been rearsenalled or even rebuilt from parts (think Finns). Is it age, history, specific markings?
 
One can easily compare a 1970's Ford F250 to a brand new one and say that the old truck is a crudely built, heavy and cumbersome and slow, rough suspension and terrible seats, and no place to plug in your Iphone. But they can both still pull two wagons of round bales out of the field, or haul a cord of firewood, and one can be fixed in the driveway with hand tools and the other cannot.
 
what makes a particular variant more desirable?
The answers are as varied as those who collect /own them. Some collect them as an adjunct to a WWI/WWII collection. Some just want a PU sniper because that's what they saw in 'Enemy at the Gates'. Some like my friend want them all. (Or so it seems....) Some collect only one country: Finland is popular, as is Russia, of course. (Mosin Nagants were manufactured in France, Russia, The USA, China, Poland, Romania, East Germany, Hungary, and were reconditioned by Finland, but no receivers were manufactured there.) Some collect by type: M91, Dragoon, M91/30, M38, M44, etc. Some prefer certain arsenals (my favorite is Sestroryetsk), some prefer hex receivers (up to 1936 or so) to round, some prefer beech or walnut stocks to birch. There's something in collecting Mosin Nagants for everyone, except possibly Llama Bob, and that's what's great about America: We are free to choose.
 
This is a fascinating thread. Many Mosin lovers and haters present. Are Mosins collectible? Absolutely. There are many variations from many manufactures differing in quality from crude to absolutely superb. Some couldn't hit the side of a barn from inside it, to some, like my New England Westinghouse, which will shoot minute of angle groups ant 100 yards. With garbage surplus ammo!!

But Mosins were made in such enormous numbers that you will rarely find one worth four figures, regardless of who made it or how well it shoots. That is not necessarily a bad thing, it is in fact a blessing. One can assemble a complete collection of one of the most historically important rifles of all time....for less than the cost of a Ferrari. Try and assemble a complete collection of Lugers or Colt hoglegs for less than the cost of a house!!

Mosin-Nagants are totally cool in my book. They are one of the Iconic firearms in all of human history, because of the enormous role they played, in it.
 
The appeal for me is its use during WW2. I've been facinated with WW2 history and weapons since I was about 13 years old. Mine is dated 1940 and with 1942 and 1951 rearsenal stamps, so it was built before the invasion of the soviet union and is thus rather nicely machined. Given the date stamps it is almost certain that it was in combat in WW2. They would not have rebuilt it twice in 11 years had it not been used. Its fun to ponder where it was in the war. Could have been on the lines during Operation Barbarossa, defeated the 6th army at Stalingrad or pushed the retreating germans back across Poland. Or mabey it spent the whole war sitting next to some mailman. We'll never know. The other mosin I want to get is a Finnish M39 just for the connection to the Winter War and the siege of Leningrad.
 
Where are the photos?

Four Finnish M 91 rifles---

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1941 Tikka M 91---

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Korean War 1938 Izhevsk bringback, ex-Noel Schott---

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Finnish M 27 1934---

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1941 SAKO M 39---

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And this Finnish bolt handle---

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-----krinko
 
Cant remember the date on this one, my buddy bought it and another one from me. Hes a collector, and realy wanted the other one that was mostly parts, he restored it and its one of his favorite shooters.
Load is a 174smk over h4350, cant remember the charge weight.... fairly low from the velocity.
2011-04-29_12-46-41_103.jpg

Bought this one...for 40 bucks, stock and scope mount cost me 60, which is what i paid for the whole other gun.
This gun shot 174smks into less than an inch at 100, i i pushed loads pretty hard in that gun and never had a hiccup.
IMG_20120916_131134.jpg
 
Make Mine a Mosin.

Ive love'd 'em since the late 80's whe the first cheap Finns showed up. A few shots from a friends long old m91, and I bought an M-28/30 and never looked back.
After a 5 year kick in the guts, Im back to making a living with an M-39.

An excellent Arctic Hunters Rifle.
 
Ha ha ha. Where does everyone get this from? It's tamer than many competing battle rifle rounds of the era. Certainly more pleasant than 30-06 or 8mm bolt guns with issue steel buttplates. If anything it was the reduced recoil round of its time.
I don't understand it either. I'd say my m44 and m38 have a really hard shove, not a kick to them... almost, pleasant. And I find them fun as hell to shoot. I'd go out and put 30-40 rounds through them just having fun.


I believe you have to have the bayonette folded out if you want to hit anything. Isn’t that right?

I’ll second that they kick. My m44 In stock trim kicked harder than a 30-06 or my .270 or even the 7mm mag. With the ATi stock and hand loads it doesn’t do as much as any of those. I’m wondering if some of the surplus ammo is loaded hot or with some combination that makes them recoil.
I've read that they were sighted in using the bayonet extended as well, but for a combat rifle, under stress, the difference is negligible when Minute-of-Man is going to be your best accuracy anyhow.
I can't recall whether my Garand or M44/M38's "kick" harder, but neither is unpleasant. Now, the only time I fired a 7mm mag was with a lightweight composite stock proned out. That's the hardest I've ever been kicked. I was done after two rounds. I can't even consider putting the Mosin in the same class in that regards.
My 870 with synthetic stock hits harder than my Mosins.
 
Has the Mosin Nagant become a cool collector's piece with all the rights and privileges known to such realm?
No. Krags, Springfields, Mausers and Garands are cool. Mosin never will be. Let's be honest, the only reason people like them is because they are cheap.

I don't get it. To me, it's their very sad history that makes them uncool. These were not the tools of liberty. Fine fighting rifles that brave men fought for freedom with. These were crude, poorly designed and poorly manufactured implements that were handed to every other untrained, conscripted peasant on their way to the slaughter.
 
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Poor accuracy, poor metallurgy, poor stocks, poor function, poor reliability for the autos. Poor sights. Poor triggers. Other than the fact that they are physically capable of chambering a round and firing it, it's hard to find any good points on any of the three.

Warning--wall o'text post ahead. And this is my personal opinion and as usual YMMV.

Actually, from the Russian arms that I have seen and dealt with, including rebuilding from parts on some, the metallurgy is fine, leaving aside times like the Russian Revolution or perhaps the fall of Soviet Union. Metallurgy is one area that the Russians have done pretty well and actually I've seen less corrosion problems on Mosin parts such as bolts and receivers than Mausers, including the vaunted German ones. Russia also chrome lined bores before it became fashionable in the West. German metallurgy during WWII and somewhat during later stages of WWI also demonstrated problems. The U.S. had the obvious problem during WWI with the Springfield 1903's manufacture.

On particulars, the SKS for example, works fine, is rugged, and about as accurate as its competitors as issued including the Garand. The issued trigger is not great but is similar in design to the Garand and can be tuned to be quite acceptable for a semi-auto. No credible evidence exists that that Russian semi-auto/automatics are unreliable--there is a reason that the Israelis chose to model their Galil on the AK and that the Finns, despite being bitter about the Russo-Finnish wars, adopted an AK variant--the Valmet for a time. They are more reliable than most designs if abused. Personally, I have never had a stoppage nor feed issue on my SKS despite firing some rather cheap steel cased ammo. I have also got around 2 MOA from that rifle using handloads and Tech Sights.

I do not have an AK but respect its reliability and ruggedness. I don't have one because I have other rifles that are as reliable and rugged with better sights, better triggers, and accuracy. If you get some of the high end AK's or AK variants, I understand that these have better triggers and accuracy with provisions for sights. The AK-74 apparently is more accurate in general but I never acquired one because the ammo availability was questionable. A buddy of mine has one and likes it.

On the use by Russians of open sights, I somewhat agree. But, the open sights on these firearms come from a different military doctrine than the U.S. where volume of fire and peripheral visibility were more important to Russians than every man is a rifleman ideal of the Americans. Russian sights on the Mosin are not that inferior to similar Mauser open sights and the greater 5+ inches of barrel gives a longer sight line. Ceterus paribus, longer sight lines improve open sight performance. Mosin sights were also hooded and protected as issued compared with Mausers. Firing them, I do not have a problem despite being trained on peep sight types. SKS open sights are similar but obviously on a much shorter rifle and firing a cartridge with much shorter effective range AK's sights, I do not like particularly but they are no worse than many sub-machine gun sights. Russian doctrine was to fire the Mosin with the bayonet attached from what I recall. Some of the reports of inaccuracy stem from firing the rifle without the bayonet which obviously gives a different POA. The Russian sniper rifles using the Mosin platform and the Finns wringing out every bit of goodness out the Mosin indicate that the platform itself can be as accurate as any of their competitors in bolt actions.

The AK was viewed as a bullet sprayer replacing their pistol caliber sub machine guns from what I understand about Soviet tactics. Volume of fire was more important than minute of angle accuracy to the Russians based on their WWII tactics--the 5-6 MOA accuracy was not problematic if you are firing full auto and relying on volume of fire/human wave tactics. They had special sniper rifles and snipers trained for aimed fire and used these far more than the Americans and British during WWII (Germans also had snipers but do not believe it was integrated as much in their army than the Russians from what I recall).

U.S. rifles of the time had more sophisticated and slower to deploy sights. Probably because of logistics of transporting ammo across the US, we did not emphasize mass firing in our military training. Note that the U.S. did not use volley type sights between the Civil War and WWI and had an almost pathological fear of troops wasting small arms ammunition using magazine cutoffs etc. The 1888 GEW and subsequent Mausers never had magazine cutoffs nor did the Mosins. Thus, we had to focus on marksmanship and making each shot count. The British were in-between. They retained the volley sights far later than they were useful as a remnant of the musket era but scrapped them in WWI. However, they developed some of the best adjustable open sights on the original No. 1, went to peep sights in the P14, and then adopted them wholesale for the No. 4 rifle.

Triggers for late 19th and 20th century U.S. and British bolt actions are generally quite good unless Bubba has been ahold of them. Mausers vary from decent to awful without tuning as they were designed for functioning under rough conditions and ease of manufacture. Steyr Mannlichers, French bolt actions, etc. vary in their suckitude but also go bang. Apart from the weird MAS 36 type sights, these also use open sights of varying quality. Probably the best issued triggers were those of the Swiss but even they kept open sights for general issue weapons.

On U.S. issued weapons, triggers for U.S. semi-autos vary in quality with the AR series issue triggers not being very good compared to the U.S. bolt rifles or even the Garand/M14/M1 carbine. There is a reason that many seek aftermarket triggers for AR's.

Never fired a FAL nor British bullpup so others will be better judges of those.

Regarding stocks, the Mosin stocks are not much different than U.S. 1903 S stocks. These were never designed for scopes. C stocks were an upgrade for U.S. forces using the 1903 with scant stocks in the middle. Two piece stocks (buttstock and forend) can be inferior in accuracy and do require more careful fitting than a Mosin or U.S. stock but use wood more efficiently. The British did quite well with theirs because of their traditions of armorers. AK and SKS stocks are similar two piece stocks and both bear a resemblance to MAS/Lebel type stocks. The SKS laminated stock is quite nice but heavy and the AK has went to synthetic. Both usually use native available woods rather than walnut. But birch, apart from aesthetics, is a decent wood to work with and is comparable with walnut. Both are designed for open sights and neither for scopes. However, compared with the AR's carry handle/sight combo, neither was the original AR's stock. Putting a scope on an AR with the integral carrying handle is more awkward than the SKS or AK.

I don't find a Mosin perfect--the obvious issue is rimlock and the necessity of having a cartridge interruptor due to using a rimmed cartridge. The second is the safety is poorly designed--I suspect in practice they did as the French (the Lebel, Berthier, and MAS 36 have no safeties) of loading when ready to fire and otherwise keeping the chamber empty. The trigger is not very good as issued and quality of manufacturing dropped at times during the Russian Revolution or the Great Patriotic War. Aesthetically, the Mosin's bolt handle is short, stubby, and looks awkward compared to the German Mauser. Fit and finish of the rifles is not up to par with pre-war German, French, or English rifles. Shellac is not that durable for a rifle finish and the chipped, gobbed on, poorly stained stocks detract from its somewhat suspect beauty and if stripped, birch stocks rarely show great figure. That being said, it is a historic rifle being used in multiple wars, has a clever and unique design, available and relatively cheap, has cheap ammo available to shoot it compared with some milsurps, and it pretty much goes bang when you pull the trigger regardless of conditions. It is collectible for all of those reasons. The Springfield, Mauser, Enfield, and Mosin, did things that changed the world for better or worse. It is natural that some people want to acquire them and some to shoot them.

Some of those things that were done with those rifles, created death, misery, and destruction. I can understand people not wanting certain rifles for those reasons. People also like to argue the merits and demerits of particular rifles including design, function, accuracy, battle doctrines, etc. As for myself, I like these rifles' connection to history and am willing to forgive their particular shortcomings just as I revere passed down family firearms for the same reason. 'Nuff said.
 
...Let's be honest, the only reason people like them is because they are cheap.

Exactly the same sentiments were felt about all the US WWII surplus guns when I was a kid, with the exception of a few die hard collectors.

...These were not the tools of liberty. Fine fighting rifles that brave men fought for freedom with...

There's probably a bunch of folks who fought against German invasion that would argue the exact opposite.
 
They killed alot of Nazis . That right there makes them cool. Alot of history . Crude guns make hunting affordable to alot of people . They can be very accurate. If it was the only rifle you had. You could do alot worse.
 
Really, was freedom the result in post-WWII Soviet Union???

WWII surplus guns were inexpensive because they were plentiful and deemed no longer necessary but they were not cheaply made. The Mosin is cheap any way you look at it.


They killed alot of Nazis . That right there makes them cool. Alot of history . Crude guns make hunting affordable to alot of people . They can be very accurate. If it was the only rifle you had. You could do alot worse.
A lot of untrained conscripts died with a Mosin in their hands when their only other choice was to be shot by their own officers. Sorry but the Soviets under Stalin were more evil than the Nazi's and murdered millions of their own people.
 
Really, was freedom the result in post-WWII Soviet Union???

WWII surplus guns were inexpensive because they were plentiful and deemed no longer necessary but they were not cheaply made. The Mosin is cheap any way you look at it.



A lot of untrained conscripts died with a Mosin in their hands when their only other choice was to be shot by their own officers. Sorry but the Soviets under Stalin were more evil than the Nazi's and murdered millions of their own people.
Yep I can't disagree. I think we can all agree it's cool we can buy them and most of the rest of the good people of the world cannot. We needed the Soviets during ww2. It was a short and weird alliance.
 
The Russians I've talked to are extremely proud of their defeat of the Nazi's, including my friend who's grandfather defended Stalingrad. It would seam they preferred there own tyrannical government to the Nazi's.

As to Mosins being poorly designed and poorly made with bad materials, how many blown up or broken Mosins have you seen? If the answer is few or none, (none for me) then those conclusions are incorrect. If you find them distasteful then fine.
 
Rather than bash the sorted history of the government which followed (because it was pretty darned awful compared to ours), let's focus on the gun itself.

Good, bad, or otherwise there is indeed a following today. In another 20 years as we approach the 100 year anniversary of WWII that is sure to increase.

In the interim, I think I will enjoy shooting mine and not worry about the rest. Of course I put it in a ATI stock to bang around while all the original materials and with matching numbers are boxed up for the happy dude who just has to have one sometime in the future.
 
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