jonnyc
Member
Don't understand the continuing speculation........the markings have been explained above. The origin and meaning is known.
Mossad marked Tanfoglio CZ 75 vs. real CZ
- Thread starter peacebutready
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peacebutready
Member
I thought the Spetnaz used CZ-75s.
The Czech military didn't use the CZ-75 back when the Eastern Bloc existed?
Walt Sherrill
Member
peacebutready said:
It's possible the Spetnaz used CZ-75s -- just like U.S. Special Ops teams can use almost anything they NEED. There may have been times when 9mm rounds were necessary (if only to misdirect those investigating the victim bodies. If they did use it, it still wasn't an everyday carry weapon and was not widely distributed. They really liked the Makarov, and some used the double-stack version of that weapon (which, I think, only the Soviets used.) But all Special Ops troops tend to rely most on their automatic assault weapons.
The Czech military used the CZ-52, which used the 7.62x25 round (developed with the Tokarev) and it was later replaced by the CZ-82.
As already noted, Special Operations troops always were an exception. But except those individuals, I have found that no Warsaw Pact military units issued or used weapons that used the 9mm round -- and doing so would have created a unique logistics problem for the system.
peacebutready
Member
The CZ-82 and the Makarov used/uses a bullet that is something like .36 or .365 wide, so it can't be used in regular 9mm pistols.
Didn't Russia move to the 9mm after the fall of the Soviet Union?
Walt Sherrill
Member
peacebutready said:
Yes, but it's taken them a while to get there. The Warsaw Pact never used them widely.
The Russian military has several handguns that use 9x19, and several sub-machine guns, too. I don't think that any of these guns are being exported. Here's a link with pictures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_Russian_small_arms_and_light_weapons
hemiram
Member
I have 3 of the Tanfoglio Israeli surplus guns, two of them say "Mossad" on the slide, and the other, in my Avatar is a "Combat Cohai" gun. The fullsized "Mossad" gun is my favorite of all my guns. I changed the recoil spring and off I went. I've but like 10000 rounds through it with a handful of failures all related to not cleaning it, or bad ammo. It's got a great trigger and the slide to frame fit is better than any other gun I've owned, including Sigs and HK's. The (Electroless?) nickel finish is very well done, and the gun shows almost no wear anywhere inside it. Even the top of the slide where the barrel cams into it is barely marked. I like the grips too, I had a set of rubber grips, but I ended up cleaning up and sanding down the wood ones it came with a little to make them look a little better, and take the edge off the checkering, which I never really like on any grip.. The wood appears to have been soaked in varnish as when I sanded it, the sawdust that came off looked like brown plastic more than wood. My compact "Mossad" is nickel too, and has nice smooth grips on it. It's in at least as good of condition as the big one. The "Cohai" gun is a bit less pretty than the big Mossad, but it shoots almost as well.
And IMHO, with the big beavertail, it looks great. It's probably the last gun I will ever sell.
And IMHO, with the big beavertail, it looks great. It's probably the last gun I will ever sell.
Walt Sherrill
Member
Double posted while editing. Sorry
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Walt Sherrill
Member
Very nice gun. I've had a number of Tanfoglio-made guns that had great triggers,. Except for an ASAI ONE PRO in .45 I owned for a wile, t have only shot guns assembled or made in Israel. (The ASAI ONE PRO was the imported by Magnum Research. I'd like to another, and if I ever find one, I'll get it.)
I have a semi-custom (or maybe full custom) AT-84s supposedly built by a big-name gunsmith back in the late 1980s (Jim Boland, now dead), but the only proof I have of that is the quality of the work and the LOOK of the gun. This one, like the gun in the response above, is based on the Tanfoglio version of the CZ design. The finish on the slide was damaged, and I had it nickel-plated, but I now wish I had it done with darker finish.
It has all sorts of nice features. The trigger pull is outstanding in either DA or SA. The front strap and back strap are enhanced, and a mag well was added, along with an adjustable sight. The slide release has been extended. And even the grips were changed to wrap around the rear of grip differently than stock grips. (They were cutaway for the mag well, too.) It was assembled and finished in Switzerland.
The negative part of all of the gunsmith work is the sight, which required a bunch of the slide to be cut away (It drops down INTO a cut-away area on top of the slide, removing the dovetail and surrounding metal) .This is an an early BO-MAR sight which they no longer support (although they did make a repair when the hinge pin failed, no charge). I don't expect it to fail again, so it may be a non-issue. Finding a replacement sight, if one is ever needed, will be almost impossible and I'd probably have to find a replacement slide. But the good stuff will still be good with that replacement.
This may be my best all-around gun, but I'll never be able to sell it for what I paid for it or what I think it's worth, so I'll just pass it on to my son (a semi-gun nut and a NC State Trooper.)
I have a semi-custom (or maybe full custom) AT-84s supposedly built by a big-name gunsmith back in the late 1980s (Jim Boland, now dead), but the only proof I have of that is the quality of the work and the LOOK of the gun. This one, like the gun in the response above, is based on the Tanfoglio version of the CZ design. The finish on the slide was damaged, and I had it nickel-plated, but I now wish I had it done with darker finish.
It has all sorts of nice features. The trigger pull is outstanding in either DA or SA. The front strap and back strap are enhanced, and a mag well was added, along with an adjustable sight. The slide release has been extended. And even the grips were changed to wrap around the rear of grip differently than stock grips. (They were cutaway for the mag well, too.) It was assembled and finished in Switzerland.
The negative part of all of the gunsmith work is the sight, which required a bunch of the slide to be cut away (It drops down INTO a cut-away area on top of the slide, removing the dovetail and surrounding metal) .This is an an early BO-MAR sight which they no longer support (although they did make a repair when the hinge pin failed, no charge). I don't expect it to fail again, so it may be a non-issue. Finding a replacement sight, if one is ever needed, will be almost impossible and I'd probably have to find a replacement slide. But the good stuff will still be good with that replacement.
This may be my best all-around gun, but I'll never be able to sell it for what I paid for it or what I think it's worth, so I'll just pass it on to my son (a semi-gun nut and a NC State Trooper.)
peacebutready
Member
With the Tanfoglio CZ copies, is there an era that is better than others? Ex: Older ones are better than newer ones or vice-versa.
hemiram
Member
I wish I had some of your guns, Walt!
I had a EAA Witness .45, well, I had two of them, an older one and a newer one that were almost identical. the "wonder finish" seemed to be exactly the same on both and they both functioned perfectly. I sold them and my S&W 4506 due to cash flow problems, otherwise I would still have them all. Since my cash issues are in the past, I replaced the 2 Witnesses with a SAR K2 45, which holds 14 rounds and shots great, and a great condition Police trade in Sig P220 Dak, with a worked on action that is amazingly smooth. I wish I could have found a stainless K2, but for the $369 I paid for it in black, I couldn't pass it up. Between my Jericho, my 3 Tanfoglio made guns, and one of these days, one of the Canik CZ clones, I'm pretty much all set for CZ 9mm's. But if a nickel or stainless one comes along, I will probably be unable to resist. I want one of the expensive Witnesses very badly.
I spent my gun money this year: Sig P226 Stainless elite. I love all steel guns.
I had a EAA Witness .45, well, I had two of them, an older one and a newer one that were almost identical. the "wonder finish" seemed to be exactly the same on both and they both functioned perfectly. I sold them and my S&W 4506 due to cash flow problems, otherwise I would still have them all. Since my cash issues are in the past, I replaced the 2 Witnesses with a SAR K2 45, which holds 14 rounds and shots great, and a great condition Police trade in Sig P220 Dak, with a worked on action that is amazingly smooth. I wish I could have found a stainless K2, but for the $369 I paid for it in black, I couldn't pass it up. Between my Jericho, my 3 Tanfoglio made guns, and one of these days, one of the Canik CZ clones, I'm pretty much all set for CZ 9mm's. But if a nickel or stainless one comes along, I will probably be unable to resist. I want one of the expensive Witnesses very badly.
I spent my gun money this year: Sig P226 Stainless elite. I love all steel guns.
Janos Dracwlya
Member
Obviously, they aren't actually Mossad guns, but Tanfoglio is a decent manufacturer. I'd buy two, so you could have a set of spare parts, though.
Tallball
Member
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I also have a fancy 45acp version that (ironically) needs a trigger job, and also two polymer versions in 40 and 45. I think these three were all sold under the "Witness" name. If you like polymer, a used Witness is a good deal. I found mine for $250 apiece without trying very hard.
The polymer 45 has some sort of annoying sleeve on the magazine. Apparently they used a full-sized barrel and magazine but a compact grip? It's mildly annoying in principle, but it shoots just fine.
The polymer 45 has some sort of annoying sleeve on the magazine. Apparently they used a full-sized barrel and magazine but a compact grip? It's mildly annoying in principle, but it shoots just fine.
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lsudave
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You have the Tanfoglio, I have the CZ.
Speculating on which has the nicer finish, you do have to keep in mind CZ polycoated their guns. Looks like your dark gun is blued. "Nicer" is subjective, but while the polycoat is tough as nails, it ain't what I'd call pretty.
I do prefer the CZ on the basis of being the original, but I also like a good blue.
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