Mossberg 500 or Remington 870?

[SwampWolf]

Zoogster, you haven't offered any empirical evidence as to why you believe the 870 is "clearly better" than the 500. Because it's made of steel? Because it's heavier? Because it has a more awkward safety to access?

And don't kid yourself: no manufacturer is going to pass up a chance at getting a fat, lucrative military contract for thousands of shotguns because "they had nothing to prove". Well, they had plenty to gain- unless, of course, something "broke" and their reputation became tarnished...

 

[Fred Fuller]

If you want to compare a Mossberg design to the Remington 870, it should be the 590 and not the 500. The 590 was redesigned to military contract specifications to have a pull-through cleanout on the magazine tube- a feature which the 500 lacks but the 870 shares. Several other improvements to the 500 design were specified as well. If you want a fair comparison, then you should compare guns with similar features and design specifications.

And it is true that Remington did not participate in the RFP for that much-touted-by-Mossberg-fans military contract. But please remember it was not the Mossberg 500 which took that particular contract (though many 500s have since been purchased by the lowest-bid-wins military purchasing officials), but a redesigned-to-specification Mossberg 590, which is a different beast than the 500- and costs more too. Compare apples to apples, please.

My bias in favor of the 870 has been restated here often, and hasn't changed. The Mossberg 590 is a fine shotgun and a good choice for out-of-the-box use. I'd be less trusting of the 500 than the 590 under demanding circumstances due to the difficulty with which the magazine tube can be accessed in th event of problems. I once had a crimp failure on a shell in a Mossberg 500 magazine which released a few pellets of birdshot into the magazine tube. That turned the gun into a single shot until it could be gotten to a workbench with tools to take it apart and clear the jammed magazine. The same clearing could have been accomplished by field stripping either an 870 or a 590.

Treated with respect, any of the three will likely outlast their original purchaser. Try them all before you make up your mind, and shoot what suits you best, for whatever reasons you choose to espouse. Just be sure you Stay Safe doing it 8^).

lpl/nc

 

[tunis]

i have the 870 for HD. it's got the knoxx spec-ops stock for reduced recoil, 7 shot capacity, hogue finger groove grip and forend and 6 shell side saddle. nothing beats a point-n-shoot firearm for HD!

 

[HisDivineShadow]

I have to agree, the 500 is not to be compared to the 870, the 590 is the gun for that analogy.

 

[MCgunner]

And don't kid yourself: no manufacturer is going to pass up a chance at getting a fat, lucrative military contract for thousands of shotguns because "they had nothing to prove".

Yeah, that one caught my attention, too. Yeah, I don't need 40 bazillion dollars in military contract cause I ain't got nuthin' to prove. ROFL

 

[GaryGGR]

Remington has problems.

Zoogester

Yes, Remington was durable and felt no need to compete. The entire nation and much of the world already knew they were rugged and reliable. They had nothing to prove and little to gain by going into a competition.
Imagine if for example an anamoly happened and something out of the ordinary broke.

Remington has a lot to prove. I own several Remington products and plan to purchase 2 rifles this year. However the fact is that they have been struggling finically and with product development for years. I have heard the new owners are real gun guys and are moving rapidly to fix the problems.

 

[Big Boomer]

the 590 is a fine gun, but this isn't about that it's about the choice between a 500 and an 870. Is the 870 really worth the more money spent? As a HD shotty with little use, maybe a trip for some skeet or mowing down a few evil trees now and again.

It will not be used extensively, mostly will be loaded with buckshot, maybe a slug or two. Reliability, ease of use are all I am looking for as a lot of others are.

If I was going for a last ditch SHTF gun ya I would want something more. Anyhow, I've had little experience with either but so far the design of the gun, buttons, levers, safety and such seems to be the mossy as the winner.

As long as when you pick it up, aim it and pull the trigger it goes boom, and are able to repeatedly do that till she's empty is what I want. I do want it to last many, many years, that's why I am not looking at some of the uber cheap stuff. I already have a Savage 12 gauge and it goes boom when I pull the trigger but it's a 50/50 shot if I can get the next round chambered without a jam (it's not that bad but I wouldn't trust my life to it).

As I have stated before I am leaning to the 500. I imagine there are quite a few others out there looking for a HD shotty as well and didn't want to break the bank for something that may not get used that often. I will spend money on great firearms, mostly it's on pistols that I carry everyday.

 

[Fumbler]

As long as when you pick it up, aim it and pull the trigger it goes boom, and are able to repeatedly do that till she's empty is what I want. I do want it to last many, many years

If that's what you want then a Mossberg 500 will serve you well.
You kids should be able to enjoy it too.
If both guns will work fine for your life time (assuming you don't go through thousands of rounds a year) then can you really justify paying any more?

I have one and I've never ever had a problem with it.
Load it, pull the trigger, bang. Every single time.
Easy access safety, no pinched thumbs, easy to operate bolt release.
I've actually gotten my thumb stuck in an 870 once...it was the very first gun I ever shot and I was a little nervous.

Now, apparently some of the more respected people on these forums have said an 870 will last longer.
That doesn't bother me. If I'm 60 years old and finally break my 500 beyond repair then I'll still be happy. I only paid $175 on sale at Walmart.

Having said that...I turned my 500 into an 18.5" ghost ring sighted deer buster and need a long barrel for waterfowl and doves.
A new barrel costs half the price of a whole new gun, so I'm gonna get me an 870 express just to have a different gun. Variety is the spice of life right?
I've put a couple rounds through them but never owned one.
If it turns out to be the best pump gun out there then that's great. I'll still love my short barreled 500.

I seriously think this thread should end and you should just go get a 500.
You can't go wrong with either.

 

[SwampWolf]

Concerning the "differences" between the Model 500 and the Model 590, the following are quotes from the Mossberg 2007 Gun Annual: " Mossberg developed the 590 primarily for the law enforcement and potential military markets. Very similar to the 500, the 590 shares the same receiver and virtually all other features. The primary difference from the 500 is the configuration of the 590's magazine tube. This part can easily be opened for cleaning and is readily adaptable for the addition of an extended magazine tube. The Parkerized metal finish mates perfectly with other military small arms...Despite the 'military' features available on the 590 ( extended magazine tube, bayonet lug and ventilated metal handguard )the initial government contracts were for the 500 with 18" or 20" barrels and a 6-round total capacity (five in the magazine and one in the chamber).

"There have been several variations over the years; however, the heart of the venerable Mossberg 500 system has remained unchanged. Most but not all of the military contract Mossberg shotguns have aluminum trigger guards and safety buttons, while the civilian production (and some military) guns generally possess the same components made of a tough polymer compound...

"Today, our armed forces are once again in a situation where the merits of the shotgun have brought it back into the limelight. Rather than merely being assigned to guard duty or sentry work, the Mossberg 500 and 590 are going into the 'hot zones'...

"With its rock-solid reputation and decades of proven reliability, Mossberg has become the choice for the modern combat shotgun. Both in the United States and overseas, in hard-use environments such as Afghanistan and Iraq, front-line U.S. Army and U.S. Marine Corps units are relying on the 500 and 590 shotguns..."

So, at least according to Paul Markel and Bruce Canfield, the authors of the foregoing article, there is little distinguishing the Model 500 from the Model 590 Mossberg shotguns; red apples to green apples it seems.

The following is excerpted from "Mossberg-More Gun for the Money": In the late 1970's, in order to replace aging Vietnam era pumpguns still in inventory- the government "MIL SPEC 3443" established the qualifications for a new combat shotgun: "ON May 30, 1979 (Mossberg) was awarded its first military contract for the Model 500 shotgun, adapting their 500ATP6 to the United States Military Specification MIL-S-3443D. Milspecs require sample shotguns to pass an endurance test requiring 3,000 rounds to be fired with malfunctions not to exceed 0.1 % among other criteria.

"Standard physical strength testswere measured, as well as performance under extreme temperature variance and response to chemicals and common liquids. The 500 MILS shotgun is used by the Departments of the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force and Coast Guard. Serial numbers begin at US-0001."

 

[Chris B]

870

20" bbl, rifle sights

4+1 capacity, soon to be 7+1

Wood stocks

4 round side saddle

I love that gun.

 

[Big Boomer]

Well boys, I got my early Bday present, I spent more than I wanted but I am happy. I am the proud new owner of a M590A1!

They had just got in the military contract version with the heavy barrel, I picked up a tacStar? side 6 round side saddle.

My new mossy has a 9 round cap, with a bayonet lug on it (looks like I'll be shopping for one of those soon). The thicker barrel is a bit heavier, but for HD who cares? The stock is a bit long though, I might change that after a while. But it does have the nice ghost ring sights that make it very nice to shoot with slugs, in addition the action actually seems smoother than on the 500.

So what do ya think could I have done better?

 

[birdbustr]

1950 is the first year of production for the 870, so 58 years, give or take a few months. And people still try to argue the Mossberg is better than the 870? Give me a break. Mossberg 500's first year of production was 1962, so why don't they have the following and popularity? Look at the thread about the best shotgun you've ever owned and see how many Mossbergs are in there compared to the 870...Maybe a tenth as many, if that! If you prefer the Mossberg, have you used both to the extent to get a good comparison? Really?

Maybe the 590 is better than the 500. Maybe Remington 870s will someday adapt the top tang safety and then there will be no advantage to mention from the Mossbergers.

 

[MCgunner]

Maybe the 590 is better than the 500. Maybe Remington 870s will someday adapt the top tang safety and then there will be no advantage to mention from the Mossbergers.

Redesign the shell elevator so it's out of the way for reloading and then upgrade your production QC back to 1960s levels, then we'll talk. Might wanna study Mossberg's slide release, too. Current Remingtons, well, they need to improve production QC. I own Remington rifles and had a Wingmaster. I won't buy a current production Remington at this time. I'm hearing too many things about them and I know the finish on 'em right now sux. I hunt salt marsh/bay environments and that matters to me.

What really miffs me off about a gun I otherwise love is that they took the bolt lock OUT of the 700/M7 actions due to liability concerns and didn't add a 3 position safety. That's something only a corporate management whore could appreciate, certainly not a rifleman! It was the cheap way around things. Now, I neck size brass and it puts enough pressure on the bolt that it is unlikely to be lifted by accident, but it still sux, cheap way around things that should have been done RIGHT.

Little stuff like that just gets my goat about Remington. I think they've outgrown their firearms roots, just another corporation now churning out profits, not necessarily quality products. I'm getting about Remington the way the Smith guys are about post lock Smiths, buy a used one! LOL! I don't and never really did like the 870 design, though. I inherited that Wingmaster, but never really liked it. I had use of an Ithaca M37 when I was a kid that my uncle let me borrow and it was SOOO much nicer. I've yet to buy an Ithaca, really should I guess, or the Browning in the near future. I might look for used ones at gun shows. I can't knock the Mossberg, though, rugged, reliable, affordable shotgun that shoots where I look. So the action ain't Ithaca smooth, it's still a good shotgun and all I really need. It's my waterfowl gun. I have a couple of side by sides and a Winchester 1400 autoloader I like. The Winchester's ergos are no better than an 870, but it sure is soft on the shoulder for a 12 gauge and it fits me like a custom fitted shotgun right out of the box. I can overlook a crossbolt safety for that. I've fitted my Mossberg such that it fits me now, too. Had to lower the stock, but it's a fixable gun.

I really don't want another Wingmaster, just don't want one. If I get another pump (probably not as I'm thinking about a Mossberg 935 at present to be a next shotgun) it'll either be an old Ithaca or a Browning.

 

[Ash]

Uh, bird, this is meant as no offense, but the 500 is enormously popular. At present on Gun Broker there are 588 Mossberg pump-action auctions. 588 shotguns up for auction for the next week, plus another 98 over at Auction Arms and 268 over at Gunsamerica, for a combined number of 951. For Remington there are 611 at present plus 84 over at Auction Arms and 159 over at Gunsamerica for a combined number of 854. At those three sites, there are at present nearly 100 more Mossberg's available than Remingtons. now, there are some over-laps, but the popularity of the Mossberg cannot be denied.

In any case, why do you care about folks who like Mossbergs? I own both, having chosen my 870 first because of its steel receiver. I now own two Mossbergs and only one 870. The 870 collects dust in the safe these days. Do others prefer the 870? Sure they do. But my two Mossbergs are nearly 40 years old and still holding up just fine. Can there be any question of their durability? No, not in the least. Indeed, they are very clearly sturdy and durable. If they were not, over more than 40 years their reputation would be mud and nobody would buy them. They would have gone the way of the Ithaca or Savage pumps. Yet while the wonderful Savage and Ithaca's have come and gone (and come again), the Mossberg remains steady. That is came out 12 years latter matters in what way?

Ash

 

[Blue .45]

Well boys, I got my early Bday present, I spent more than I wanted but I am happy

So what do ya think could I have done better?

I think you answered your own question. As far as I'm concerned, you did great.
I bought a 500 combo earlier this year and couldn't be happier with it. All you need now is a couple of cases of target loads to feed it, and you'll be all set.
Congratulations on an excellent shotgun.

 

[Blue .45]

Sorry. double post.