JImbothefiveth
Member
Has any police agency or military agency ever done a reliability trial for autoloading shotguns?
Most reliable autoloader
- Thread starter JImbothefiveth
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RetiredLawman
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Some of the larger agencies have done testing. Most of them have gone to .223 rifles for liability reasons. IIRC, back in my day, the Remington 870 was the usual issue shotgun. Some departments may still issue shotguns but those that I have visited lately no longer issue shotguns to the uniforms. They are for specialty units like the SWAT teams, who use both rifles and shotguns.
During my 30 year career, I never used the shotgun for anything except the annual qualification. The .223 Patrolman with a 30 round magazine is the current standard. It seems that most liability insurance carriers prefer that the agencies not use shotguns due to no control over the pellets, richocets, etc. With a rifle, the round is more controllable and disintegrates upon contact.
During my 30 year career, I never used the shotgun for anything except the annual qualification. The .223 Patrolman with a 30 round magazine is the current standard. It seems that most liability insurance carriers prefer that the agencies not use shotguns due to no control over the pellets, richocets, etc. With a rifle, the round is more controllable and disintegrates upon contact.
Virginian
Member
In my opinion, the reliability (or unreliability as it were) of modern self loading shotguns is 99.9999% directly related to the nut on the back of the stock.
Delaware State Police are issued a remington 870 for every vehicle and upper officers have AR-15 Semi autos in .223 in the trunk (1 in 10 chance of them having this) as for semi autos i dont know of any agency useing these unless its a special department such as swat and i think the ones that have them are usualy privatly owned weapons that individual officers have purchased and qualified with
i only know that the marines in limited use so far have adopted the Benelli M4 wich is a very nice product
i only know that the marines in limited use so far have adopted the Benelli M4 wich is a very nice product
colorado_handgunner
Member
My understanding is that Benneli semi-auto or pump tends to be the preferred shotgun for large department SWAT teams. As I recall, Benelli semi-auto was the issue shotgun for LAPD SWAT in the 90's. Don't know if this is still the case.
armoredman
Member
That is awesome -I am going to print that up for our Dept armorer; he'll get a HUGE kick out of it.
We don't use auto loading shotguns for ease of maintenance, from what I am told. Probably due to price to, but tower shotguns get abused like crazy.
Travis Bickle
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I remember reading someplace else that the Browning A-5 is the gold standard of reliability.
Milkmaster
Member
That is my opinion. It is the original recoil operated shotgun. Benelli's are also operated by recoil but the A5 design has been proven reliable for almost a century. I know of a few A5's and model 11's that very seldom get cleaned and have gone bang reliably for many many decades.
MCgunner
Member
Recoil operation has to trump gas operation, but gas guns are reliable if you clean 'em. I like my gas gun for hunting, attenuates recoil very effectively. For defense/combat use, though, I'd prefer a pump.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
USMC purchased some Benelli shotguns - with an over long stock. 
That's a pretty good recomendation right there.
I've had a couple of Benellis and they do seem to be about the best of the new shotguns.
That's a pretty good recomendation right there.I've had a couple of Benellis and they do seem to be about the best of the new shotguns.
Virginian
Member
Well, if LA and DC are doing something, I know what I don't want to do. I'm not even sure the Marines can overcome that.
berettashotgun
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I cannot even think any shotgun could comer close to the Beretta AL-2 I grew up using.
EVERY kid around shot that thing - for years, after my Dad died I gave it to my younger brother.
It has never had any jam/ftf/ NOTHING.
Same workings as the 301/302/303, and really close to the 390 and 391.
Nothing like the Extrema, it is a Franchi
but I have been looking for a gas operated franchi 620 for birdies.
EVERY kid around shot that thing - for years, after my Dad died I gave it to my younger brother.
It has never had any jam/ftf/ NOTHING.
Same workings as the 301/302/303, and really close to the 390 and 391.
Nothing like the Extrema, it is a Franchi
but I have been looking for a gas operated franchi 620 for birdies.
It must have been a very old book. Just as the "gold standard" has fallen out of favour so too has the Auto 5.
In its day, a century ago, the Auto 5 was leading edge technology but it has since been bypassed by simpler, more robust and efficient designs.
rbernie
Contributing Member
By what specific designs? The inertia designs?
I know a bunch of folk whose experience in all sorts of climates and conditions lead them to still consider the late-model A5s (with the speedload feature) to be the most RELIABLE autoloader. Not the most carryable or lightest, maybe....
9x23
Member
On Pump Shotguns...
When I came on, my department issued on the officer’s request at the beginning of the shift either a Remington, Ithaca or Mossberg pump shotgun. Our cars had an electrically actuated locking rack with a hidden release button.
Shortly thereafter someone figured out, and wisely so, that it would be far safer to have only ONE brand/type shotgun with the same controls (slide release, safety, etc.) to avoid brain fade in the event of actually having to use it.
Several years later when I became one of the department’s firearms instructors we did an experiment on shotgun reliability between the then issued Remington 870s and semi-auto shotguns – we used the Remington 1100 gas gun and the Browning Auto Five recoil gun in comparison.
The 1100 operated flawlessly with the prescribed maintenance, but was discounted for the maintenance aspect. The Auto Five which also operated flawlessly was discounted for it’s cost. Of course, the 870 operated flawlessly IF operated flawlessly!
We took officers who had passed the shotgun qualifying standards and put them into stressful situations, ie., giving them an unrealistic minimum time constraint, making them run 100 yards while being yelled at before they got to the firing position and firing blanks.
We had a 12% failure rate due to SHORT SHUCKING the 870 in the course of fire, thus proving the greater reliability of the semi-auto. We kept the 870s – the department didn’t want to spend the money rearming with new shotguns. Oh, well….. 9x23
When I came on, my department issued on the officer’s request at the beginning of the shift either a Remington, Ithaca or Mossberg pump shotgun. Our cars had an electrically actuated locking rack with a hidden release button.
Shortly thereafter someone figured out, and wisely so, that it would be far safer to have only ONE brand/type shotgun with the same controls (slide release, safety, etc.) to avoid brain fade in the event of actually having to use it.
Several years later when I became one of the department’s firearms instructors we did an experiment on shotgun reliability between the then issued Remington 870s and semi-auto shotguns – we used the Remington 1100 gas gun and the Browning Auto Five recoil gun in comparison.
The 1100 operated flawlessly with the prescribed maintenance, but was discounted for the maintenance aspect. The Auto Five which also operated flawlessly was discounted for it’s cost. Of course, the 870 operated flawlessly IF operated flawlessly!
We took officers who had passed the shotgun qualifying standards and put them into stressful situations, ie., giving them an unrealistic minimum time constraint, making them run 100 yards while being yelled at before they got to the firing position and firing blanks.
We had a 12% failure rate due to SHORT SHUCKING the 870 in the course of fire, thus proving the greater reliability of the semi-auto. We kept the 870s – the department didn’t want to spend the money rearming with new shotguns. Oh, well….. 9x23
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rbernie
Contributing Member
By what measure? I'm not trying to be quarrelsome - I'm looking for quantifiable data.
I certainly would not consider my 1100s or Winchester 1400s, for example, to be 'more reliable' than my Auto5s.
From the standpoints of repairability, shootability and reliability the Auto 5 has been surpassed by most modern designs. In an apples to apples comparison of inertia/recoil actions the Benelli is superior in a number of regards.
The forend cracking of the Auto 5 is a known weakness. The Browning design is significantly more complex, harder to tear down and work on and requires more handfitting to get to work properly.
rbernie
Contributing Member
I guess we'll just have to disagree on that. The forearm cracking doesn't seem (to me) to be a reliability issue, in that it doesn't cause the gun to actually malfunction unless you let the forearm completely splinter. And I find the A5 to be no less complex than many other designs; the biggest nit I can find is the need to pull four screws to drop the trigger assembly (although that design adds a degree of robustness in the retention of the trigger assembly).
The hand-fitting of parts to the A5 is a fair statement, but again I don't see that as a detriment to reliability as much as an impact upon maintainability.
I guess I took the OP to be asking which shotgun was most likely to go BANG! when needed, as often as needed, under the broadest range of circumstances. In that regard, I still cannot see how the Auto5 has been much eclipsed.
The hand-fitting of parts to the A5 is a fair statement, but again I don't see that as a detriment to reliability as much as an impact upon maintainability.
I guess I took the OP to be asking which shotgun was most likely to go BANG! when needed, as often as needed, under the broadest range of circumstances. In that regard, I still cannot see how the Auto5 has been much eclipsed.
Hawk
Member
I've always found it interesting that Benelli tossed the inertia system overboard for gas op on the M4.
...something to do with the inertia system not taking well to piling a load of stuff on the weapon, although I gather it took quite a load before it started acting up - probably night vision, satellite phone and hibachi. They once had an explanation for the choice on their website but it seems to have gone away.
...something to do with the inertia system not taking well to piling a load of stuff on the weapon, although I gather it took quite a load before it started acting up - probably night vision, satellite phone and hibachi. They once had an explanation for the choice on their website but it seems to have gone away.
steveracer
Member
I always wanted a Hibachi for my shotgun, but I was always worried about what the old timers would think.
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