Motor Oil for Lube

[jcwit]

Very good response ORO. I had picked up that long desertation form A site called bob is the oil guy which is all about oil and greases and waxes ect., ect., ect. for autos, lawn mowers, guns, ect., ect.

Sorta thought it fit in here also.

 

[Magnumite]

All of our posters who are engineers and materials specialists, this is not a slam towards you. I read and learn from your posts in earnest.

But I must reply to jcwit - any real lube can be used in a pinch. Your response was simplistic at best. The statement of pieces from an engine was referring to application of a formulated lubricant for a given application used in a application for which it was not intended. You obviously didn't understand that.

And do you think a firearms manufacturer would recommend substandard lube for their products? Think again. I am sure most of those firearms engineers and test personnel know more about the lubes than we do.

Modern lubes are developed to meet specific needs of firearms (or other mechanism for given lube). Ever heard of lubing and then wiping excess off of internal rifle mechanisms in cold weather to prevent misfires due to thickened oil slowing firing pin movement? How about slides that cycle slower from colder temps with some lubes? Or ever see galling and spalling on slide rails or magnum cylinder ejectors from inadequate lube quality? How about 22 conversions (aluminum on steel) cycling problems from different quality lubes?

Not saying firearm mechamisms will come apart from lube, but they will wear and operate differently.

In the mean time keep using your peanut oil.

 

[jcwit]

You obviously didn't understand that.
/QUOTE]

Oh, I had no problem understanding it at all.

Modern lubes are developed to meet specific needs of firearms

I also feel "IMO" that many "gun" oil's and lubes are nothing more than repackaged lubes made for lubricating just about anything. This theory of mine holds true for many things, just trot down to your local auto parts store and see all the snake oils available to give you any thing from a ring job to fixing an automatic tranny. Ya rite.

In the mean time keep using your peanut oil.

This statement of mine was nothing more than a joke, my lame attempt at humor. After all Peanut oil is all natural, which must make it OK, right?

I'm sure it does as I read it on the net.

Your response was simplistic at best

There are also some words of wisdom----KISS

 

[Runningman]

Engine oils and gear oils contain additives that actually harm metal and wood finishes such as sulfur and phosphorus that attracts moisture to form acids. In an engine and gear box most of this moisture is evaporated out with high temperatures, but with guns, that moisture just collects on surfaces.

 

[Gadzooks Mike]

Ya'll are forgetting one very important thing - gun oil SMELLS good. It smells like - well, like gun oil. Maybe I like it because I enjoy cleaning guns, but it does have a unique smell.

Then again, I resisted getting a motorcycle with a belt or shaft drive because I enjoyed cleaning the chain. Go figure.

 

[Oro]

Then again, I resisted getting a motorcycle with a belt or shaft drive because I enjoyed cleaning the chain. Go figure.

A little thread drift (this has nothing to do with lubes, but might appeal to those who like G. Mike's post):

Nope, nothing to "figure." While I can appreciate the ease of a shaft, the mechanical efficiency and time-honored ritual of chain maintenance are appealing to some of us. If you feel that way, you probably really like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. I read it as a young boy into motorcycles not knowing what I was picking up to read. Changed my life.

And if you do like that, you should read Shopcraft as Soulcraft, an inquiry into the Value of Work. It was just published, and is along those lines. It was written by a UVA philosophy pofessor (and motorcycle shop owner!). Here's a feel for it from his original essay back in 2006:

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-soulcraft

 

[musick]

Engine oils and gear oils contain additives that actually harm metal and wood finishes such as sulfur and phosphorus that attracts moisture to form acids. In an engine and gear box most of this moisture is evaporated out with high temperatures, but with guns, that moisture just collects on surfaces.

Really? I never heard that before, in reference to harming metal. I can understand motor oils harming wood finishes, but the wood I have on my arms doesnt rust, so I leave it off my stocks.

My understanding is that phosphorus is an anti-wear additive that is part of most motor oils "add pack". Sulfur is found in products like breakfree CLP as well as motor oils. If it was so horrible for arms, I wonder why it is found in a all-in-one, gun specific product like breakfree CLP?

Also syn oil is not hygroscopic, so it wont pull water out of the atmosphere. Oils in auto engines accumulate moisture via condensation and the fact that moisture is a normal byprodust of combustion. Even when I carried, I never had condensation on my arm and I clean/lube my arms after a trip to the range, so moisture by combustion is not an issue for me.

Acids are not formed by combining moisture and S and/or P, but by the byproducts produced by combustion.

If you look the product specs and MSDS on mobil 1 and breakfree, you can see they are the same in main ingredients (PAOs, synthetic oils, esters & other ingredients). Im pretty sure you can find both on bobistheoilguy.com.


With all that said, my M1 is rarely shot. I clean/lube it maybe once a year and it shows no sign of rust/pitting or damage of any kind. Ive been using syn motor oil on it for at least 8 yrs. I partially credit the esters used in syn oils as they are attracted to metal parts with an electro-chemical bond, leaving a film on metal parts.

Additionally, I use syn oil on my knives and swords as well. None show any signs of corrosion.

 

[Tony Sopranno]

Big Question: do you want the oil to lubricate, or also protect against corrosion?

Not a bad read, but also a very good reminder why "GlockTalk" can be such a waste of time - so many children shouting at each other rudely, interspersed with really intelligent comments. The "noise" factor is so extremely high! But that conversation is all about lubrication and not corrosion protection. And I think many of us confuse the two issues when talking about what we want as a "gun oil."
[...]

Good post Oro.... as I said earlier there are all kinds of opinions about lubing a gun. I like most of the oils out there for the purpose of lubing a gun. I've also coated my guns with Militec-1 and heated them slightly after, as recommend. The idea is to open the metallic surface structure to Militec-1's additives, to fill surface irregularities, making the surface more 'bearing' like.

After a few treatments it leaves a kind of waxy feel to the metal it's been applied to. And no... it's not Teflon - the additives are easily found if you do a 'patent search' on that product in Google. I would think that the waxy feel can't be really bad on sliding metal-to-metal parts, and also for water and moisture protection. And in the barrel the manufacturer says it does wonders - backed up by military personnel in Iraq by their testimonials.

As for Mobil 1, I believe it would be okay (in a pinch, or regularly) but it has to be capable of 'shedding' itself easily on the metallic surfaces, and leaving a light protective residue after the fact.

That is done, as I said earlier, by adding a bit of mineral spirits (naphtha) or maybe even kerosene, or I suppose diesel fuel, with or without sulfur. The thinning agent (whatever it is) breaks down surface tension and then evaporates, leaving a very thin encapsulation coating of oil on the metal. ...Nothing wrong with that either: back in the days of pre-jet aviation, gasoline was added to the engine oil all of the time, to keep it thin enough for a good start-up the following day. Once the engine oil warmed sufficiently, the gasoline would boil off and be totally gone - which is the same idea with thinning any lube oil for gun use and moisture protection.

 

[log man]

If ATF was a good slick lubricant then how could a car with an automatic transmission move?

Okay, this is just too funny. Ah....so somehow an increase in friction is a better ATF, I'll just fill my trany with sand from now on.

ATF must have the highest lubrication properties, be stable at great temperature changes, be anti-foaming, endure extreme pressures and resist shearing.
LOG

 

[AgentAdam]

Royal Purple is a synthetic motor oil that seems similar to ATF.

 

[JohnKSa]

Royal Purple is a synthetic motor oil that seems similar to ATF.

???

Are you comparing ingredients or are you simply saying they're similar because of the color?

 

[Magnumite]

"gun oil SMELLS good"... Tackleberry I presume...hehehehe

musick, sulfur is in crude and difficult to remove completely. Unfortunate, but true. That stinky smell from a rich running engine is sulfur also.

The phosphates are extreme pressure additives for high load areas of the engine.

 

[jcwit]

In the end to each his own. We will never convince the none belivers, let them continue with their snake oils.

All we can do is reinforce our knowledge with scientific facts and the ingredients used. Nothing lost and nothing gained and more than likely no armes harmed either way.

Mayhaps peanut oil is in fact the ultimate answer after all. Or possibly soybean oil as an alternative.

 

[JCisHe]

I use "sta-lube" hi-temp grease. From what I understand it is a better product as it is thicker, less likely to run, and requires only small amounts to adequately lubricate the slide, etc...

Sta Lube SL3161 Aluminum Complex Grease

 

[Tony Sopranno]

Not saying firearm mechamisms will come apart from lube, but they will wear and operate differently.

In the mean time keep using your peanut oil.

Like the link Oro put up, in the article the author says, guns having been doing just fine on a diet of 3in1 Oil for 100 years. And, many knowledgeable people think ATF is just fine as well. Knowing a little of it's history I fully agree. It was developed as a substitute (a mineral synthetic) for popular animal oil, used in industrial machinery during the 19th century. Then when automobile automatic transmissions came along they needed a torque transmitting medium with outstanding lubricating and 'wetting' (sheeting) abilities, and there it was - just add some red dye.

If you're hell bent on using Mobil 1 or some other modern synthetic motor oil it's best to mix it with ATF and/or maybe some other diluting thinner/solvent, to get that maximum "migration" (what I've called sheeting in earlier posts). Once the thinners evaporate your left with good coverage for moisture protection, and a good all around lubricant that is inherent in the ATF and synthetic motor oil.

It ain't rocket science!

BTW - Back in the day... lard and bacon grease worked great too, just ask Davy Crockett. ...Bet he would have wondered about 3in1 Oil if he ever saw it. As mentioned earlier, Crisco, and other beeswax/paraffin veggie/animal-oil concoctions have also been used successfully for many years. I would not hesitate to use any of them, if I couldn't get ATF or some other kind of suitable gun oil product.

 

[Oyeboten]

In the 18th and 19th Century, Sperm Whale Oil was considered to be the first choice for Watches and Clocks, and any other fine or critical small Mechanisms or small close fitting Metal moving parts...and, I would imagine, it was used for Guns of all sorts, also.


Possibly it remains the unsurpassed Lubricant for any small, refined and close tolerance Metal Mechanisms.

 

[AgentAdam]

???

Are you comparing ingredients or are you simply saying they're similar because of the color?

Royal Purple is more purple than red like ATF but i say it "seems" similar to ATF because of a number of things like its texture and smell,and maybe even taste?, is unlike any other engine oil i have seen before not to mention that it is colored. It seems thinner than engine oil of the same weight like it sheets better. Could be a blend of syntec engine oil and atf or at least contain common ingredients or properties as ATF. I was kinda hopping someone else would fill us in on that.

I personally don't like the stuff for an engine and have had people with bad luck with it like there Honda with 150,000 miles that runs fine start smoking when they switched to RP but I'm sure it works great in brand new BMW's. I wouldn't try to go the 10,000 or 15,000 miles they commend on a single oil change though.

If it is an atf/oil blend or at least has better sheeting,penetrating,and metal bonding properties like ATF then it would work well on firearms.

 

[Tony Sopranno]

In the 18th and 19th Century, Sperm Whale Oil was considered to be the first choice for Watches and Clocks, and any other fine or critical small Mechanisms or small close fitting Metal moving parts...and, I would imagine, it was used for Guns of all sorts, also.


Possibly it remains the unsurpassed Lubricant for any small, refined and close tolerance Metal Mechanisms.

ATF's chief component is a mineral oil (synthetic) used for and in place of sperm whale oil. For all intents and purposes ATF is a mineral-based duly synthesized (18th/19th century) premium (sperm) whale oil substitute.

 

[JohnKSa]

In the 18th and 19th Century, Sperm Whale Oil was considered to be the first choice for Watches and Clocks, and any other fine or critical small Mechanisms or small close fitting Metal moving parts...and, I would imagine, it was used for Guns of all sorts, also.


Possibly it remains the unsurpassed Lubricant for any small, refined and close tolerance Metal Mechanisms.

ATF was developed to closely duplicate the properties of whale oil. (Ooops, I was working on my post while Tony Sopranno posted.)

In the end to each his own. We will never convince the none belivers, let them continue with their snake oils.

Oh come on. YES, the base lubricants (primary ingredients) can be very similar in automotive oils & gun oils, but that doesn't mean that all the ingredients are similar nor does it mean that they perform the same.

For example, Breakfree CLP's primary lubricating ingredient is the synthetic oil found in Mobil 1 motor oil (check the MSDS information). However, if you try to use Mobil 1 as a cleaner, you'll find it's lousy because it doesn't have the additive in CLP that makes it a decent cleaner. More importantly if you compare the corrosion prevention capabilties of the two oils you will find that Mobil 1 provides MISERABLE corrosion protection while CLP is one of the two or three best corrosion preventives on the gun oil market. Again, CLP has a special additive to prevent corrosion that Mobil 1 doesn't have.

Here's proof of how well CLP prevents corrosion and how bad a job Mobil 1 does. That's IN SPITE OF THE FACT that they both have the same basic oil as the primary ingredient.
http://www.6mmbr.com/corrosiontest.html

All we can do is reinforce our knowledge with scientific facts and the ingredients used.

The problem is that it's about ALL the ingredients, not just one or two. As with the example I listed above, if you focus only on the primary ingredient you miss the additional benefits provided by special purpose products.

Nothing lost and nothing gained and more than likely no armes harmed either way.

While it's probably true that not many guns are harmed by the use of motor oils, there can definitely be something lost if you expect a motor oil to provide the same level of corrosion protection offered by a premium gun oil.

It's certainly true that nearly any decent lubricant will work. Motor oil, 3-In-One Oil, cooking oil, vaseline, mineral oil, ATF, etc. But that's not the same as saying that they'll work as well as a specialized product. They won't because they don't have the specialized ingredients that a premium gun oil will have as a matter of course.

I also feel "IMO" that many "gun" oil's and lubes are nothing more than repackaged lubes made for lubricating just about anything.

Some may be, but the evidence clearly shows that your assertion is not true across the board.

... scientific facts...

All right, let's be fair about this. I've provided some hard evidence (scientific facts, if you prefer) showing a premium gun oil conclusively outperforming a premium motor oil.

So now someone else needs to provide some similarly conclusive hard evidence of a premium motor oil outperforming (or performing as well as) a premium gun oil in terms of lubrication and corrosion protection.

Until someone can do that, I think that at the very least it's not too much to ask folks to curtail the snide remarks about "snake oil" and allegations that anyone buying gun oil is being duped by those selling overpriced repackaged products.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Tony,John,



Interesting...and informative reading...very good info...thank you.


Personally, I've always used premium 'Gun' Oils for my Firearms.


They are hardly expensive, and, they go a long way.


When these were in Storage, I used 1940s 'Singer' Sewing Machine Oil (probably, '3-in-1 in a Singer Can...)


I have seen illustraions of tiny Corked Bottles of "3-in-1" which came with Colts years ago.

 

[Nuke8401]

Emotional subject, like any other subject when type "A" gun owner are involved.

This question is like most on the forum, many opinions few facts; I don't have any facts either.

I guess I would like to see a wear comparison (using guns). Put leading gun lubes and other lubes such as Mobil One on some new test guns. Shoot 10,000, 20,000, 50,000, 100,000 rounds and do wear measurements along the way.

My thought process is that almost any lube will work (prevent galling/wear and rust) if the gun is cleaned/lubed often enough with no real differences. I do use Mobile One on all my guns and have over 20,000 rounds on a G34 with no real wear (the barrel mics the same at the smiley face as it does on the unaffected part of the barrel) is this any real proof that Mobil One is a good lube? No, it is a single point of data.

Has anyone seen any real wear they would attribute to bad Lube? On guns.

I think it boils down to emotions more than actual data, kind of like politics. Statements like "I have been using X on my guns since Jesus was a child" is of no real value since you most likey don't shoot the gun (the half-box of 50 rnds you shot when you bought the gun doesn't count as "shooting the gun") and keep it in a temp/humidity controlled safe.

I suspect this thread will be locked pretty soon when emotions lead to attacks (like many threads on this forum).

 

[jcwit]

Well I am entitled to my opion whether it be right or wrong, conclusive or inconclusive.

Guess I'll just continue with my peanut oil and maybe throw in some soybean oil now and then.

In the meantime the bottles of Sperm Whale oil that i still have and use work just fine.

Some may be, but the evidence clearly shows that your assertion is not true across the board

All I can say here is I guess I shouldn't have made such a broad statement taking in every oil and lube packaged and made in the history of the oil industry.

 

[Cannonball888]

Don't forget to use the motor oils made for older cars on your older guns. And don't forget to change it every 3,000 bangs.

 

[Tony Sopranno]

ATF was developed to closely duplicate the properties of whale oil. (Ooops, I was working on my post while Tony Sopranno posted.)

JohnKSa: We're thinking along the same lines, more or less. ...hear, hear...

 

[Tony Sopranno]

Don't forget to use the motor oils made for older cars on your older guns. And don't forget to change it every 3,000 bangs.

Cannonball888: ...Guess if you put some STP in it and use a new semi-synthetic motor oil you can stretch that figure to 5000 bangs. And of course full strength 100% ATF for all those pesky auto-loaders as well ...