Movie weapons

[tark]

While we're on the subject of technically accurate movies, check out "The Sand Pebbles." Historically accurate usage of '03 Springfield and BAR (Steve McQueen later purchased that exact gun); shows how Navy uniforms are SUPPOSED to be worn

YES !!! Every time Hollywood weapons are mentioned I have pointed to this movie. Robert Wise directed it and Steve McQueen was an ex-Marine who knew how to use the weapons realistically.

 

[Charlie Horse]

Interesting thread. I've worked on a few movies, (VERY bad movies), and appeared onscreen in one. All of the movies involving guns had actual firearms with a notable exception. All of the full auto "weapons" I've ever seen on a movie set were blank firing only.

One of my favorite stories...\We were making the Bruce Willis\Thomas Jane action film Vice here. Several of us were working security for locations as a side job. I was sitting there waiting for my shift to end, and the armorer came to me and told me that they needed to test fire some guns. I thanked him for letting me know what was going on, and i walked back tot he armorer's trailer. They had been working on a couple of blank firing M4s, and needed to see if they would feed. He ran a mag through it, and then look at me and smiled and asked if I wanted to try the other one. I politely asked him not to throw me in that briar patch, and test fired the other one.

Sometimes you CAN have unexpected fun at work...

 

[RPZ]

YES !!! Every time Hollywood weapons are mentioned I have pointed to this movie. Robert Wise directed it and Steve McQueen was an ex-Marine who knew how to use the weapons realistically.

The Sand Pebbles is an outstanding film in every way. Well up there in my top favorites.

 

[Sarge]

The Luger is reported to be almost impossible and that scenes with a Luger being fired have subtle camera cuts to let the action be racked.
[QUOTE=" That can be made - they simply put a barrier on the receiver, so the toggle joint cannot lock and would stay in a slight positive angle, and grind on the unlocking ridges and that P08 becomes a blow-back. How well it works is an entirely different matter.[/QUOTE]

The Luger is simple/easy to blank adapt! I have done several for re-enactors starting with one I did for myself that I still have. No grinding is necessary. They have ALL been reliable functioning pistols.
Sarge

 

[Mizar]

The Luger is simple/easy to blank adapt! I have done several for re-enactors starting with one I did for myself that I still have. No grinding is necessary. They have ALL been reliable functioning pistols.

My memory might be playing tricks, but that's what I remember - and by "grinding" I don't mean grinding off, just reshape them a little for the toggle to move easier.

 

[Gelrir]

The show "Johnny RIngo" gave the star a modified LeMat revolver ... http://www.johnnyringo.net/lemat.htm

 

[Alte Schule]

I always try and identify the firearms being used in a movie and have done so for years. The Internet Movie Firearms Database is a great reference tool for this. http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Main_Page
Sgt.York with Gary Cooper is one of my all time favorites and I always wondered why they substituted the Colt 1911, which York really used during the battle, with a Luger P-08 taken off a German officer. Turns out that blanks wouldn't work correctly in the 1911 but they did work in the Luger. Cooper who had met York and knew the real story balked at the idea. The director lied and told him that there were time issues and that they would re-shoot the scene at a later time but never did.

 

[Jim Watson]

So you CAN blank a Luger but not a Colt. Just the opposite of the old gunzine article I was going by.

The Johnny Ringo LeMat story is interesting. Modern collectors would have a stroke at the thought of cutting up an 1860s original for a prop, but it was routinely done in those days.

 

[Mizar]

So, there are three ways that I know of to make a 1911 to fire blanks, all of which include threading on the barrel from the muzzle point and installing a restriction nut with small opening in it (roughly about .16") needed for the fired cartridge to "boost up" the pressure (basically almost all blank firing conversions need that barrel restriction):

Grinding the locking lugs on the barrel, leaving the first lug with about 60 angle on it, grind a corresponding relieve cut on the frame's locking lug and removing the link and straightening the locking surface - you basically end up with a tilting barrel blowback pistol (think Glock 28). This is the earlier type of conversion that I know of and it did not work well with .45 ACP 1911 pistols, although it's a viable conversion for a Sig P226 for example. I believe that couple of factors come to play for that conversion being unreliable - the short & thick cylindrical case, barrel pointing down when in battery and different lock and unlock timing when shooting blanks.

The second conversion is to grind off all of the barrel's locking lugs. Additional feed ramp can be welded also. That type leaves the chamber too thin - you have to grind too much material, in a radius, and that can be a potential problem, as blanks do generate some high pressures.

The third and most reliable one that I saw is to leave the barrel's locking lugs (and chamber walls) intact and instead to grind away the locking lugs on the slide. All of them, for the whole length of the slide - you basically machine the whole upper portion of the slide about .06" thinner. Weld the link in down position, weld a feed ramp to the barrel, closing the gap with the frame. Adjust the barrel bushing to accommodate for the new, fixed barrel that is still pointing down. You end up with a fixed barrel blowback pistol. This works very well, but it's the hardest to make and most time consuming of all three. Not to mention the problems one is going to face with a flat top 1911 - the roof of the slide becomes literally paper thin. I don't know who made it first, but I can speculate that it was one particular gunsmith in ISS (Independent Studio Services company in the US) that came up with it.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

The Sand Pebbles also gave a pretty good description of the steam cycle on the old steam recip plants. We used to quote it in my steam propulsion class...
Another good "historical" movie was The Wind and the Lion. You'll see lots of old guns show up in that movie both with the military scenes as well as with Teddy Roosevelt scenes.

 

[hdwhit]

Shanghai McCoy wrote:
The Sand Pebbles also gave a pretty good description of the steam cycle on the old steam recip plants.

I still remember, "Dead stim."

 

[Jack B.]

I understand that Fury is a very accurate wwll gun movie.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Maybe ten years back there was a HUGE collection of TV and movie weapons up for Auction by one of the big auction houses. They had a portion of them displayed at the Reno or maybe the Vegas Antique Arms show...forget which.

What got me about most of them...How beat up they were and the guns that were made to look exotic, like the Star Wars blasters...How absolutely lousy a job they did on the work.

Most were real beaters.

There were some exceptions though...The 1911 used in Magnum PI. Several SAA's and M-92's used by John Wayne . Many of the arms from Lonesome Dove.

It was interesting to handle some of the truly famous ones.

My Krag is an ex-RKO pictures prop gun as used in "Gunga Din" to represent an old-timey sorta-British looking weapon.....and looks like it was stepped on by every member of the cast and crew. Slapped fore and aft sights on it, removed the blank adapter, scrubbed 50 years of crud out of the barrel....shoots pretty good.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Another good "historical" movie was The Wind and the Lion. You'll see lots of old guns show up in that movie both with the military scenes as well as with Teddy Roosevelt scenes.

Too bad everything else in that movie is wrong.

Pedecaris was a 45ish, fat little man, not an attractive woman. The Marine/Navy shore party only seize the customs house at Tangier (without a fight) and sat on their duffs for the next 15 or 20 days. And, there were no Germans. But, the French did beef up their garrison in case the Marines tried to do anything thing other than prevent the customs house operations.

By the way Ion Perdicaris wasn't even an American citizen, he was Greek....

But, it does show the correct manual of arms for a saber, until he double-times with one. (You don't grasp the blade, you just run with the saber at port arms.)

Oh, and the Major's uniform is incorrect, it should look like this:

Only with the cuff lace of this pattern (in black)

 

[Tommygunn]

Too bad everything else in that movie is wrong.

Pedecaris was a 45ish, fat little man, not an attractive woman. The Marine/Navy shore party only seize the customs house at Tangier (without a fight) and sat on their duffs for the next 15 or 20 days. And, there were no Germans. But, the French did beef up their garrison in case the Marines tried to do anything thing other than prevent the customs house operations.

By the way Ion Perdicaris wasn't even an American citizen, he was Greek....

But, it does show the correct manual of arms for a saber, until he double-times with one. (You don't grasp the blade, you just run with the saber at port arms.)

Oh, and the Major's uniform is incorrect, it should look like this:
View attachment 759718
Only with the cuff lace of this pattern (in black)
View attachment 759719

Perhaps that's why the writer of the post put quotes around "historical" when he wrote it........

 

[tark]

I understand that Fury is a very accurate wwll gun movie.

Venturino did an article on that movie. It was very accurate except for one small, possible goof. The M-3A1s shown probably have been the earlier M-3, with that trouble prone cocking lever. I believe that the Army started issuing the A1s very late in the war.

But all in all, it was very, very good by Hollywood standards.

 

[CapnMac]

Venturino did an article on that movie. It was very accurate except for one small, possible goof

Other than SSGT Layfayette Pool, who commanded three Fury's (Fury, Fury II, Fury III) was a "grizzled old man" of about 28, about 20 years younger than Brad Pitt. Also Fury III was an "Easy Eight" (from M4A3E8--phonetically, Mike four Able three Easy eight) not an M4A3 (it's a distinction with some serious differences). Also, none of the Furies were in a last ditch stand, and SSGT Pool survived the war (he was acclaimed as possibly the most successful tank commander of the war--few enough survived the entire war)..

Not a bad movie, but not the best, either. Way better than stinkers like U-571 or Pearl Harbor or Vague Pinkish Circle (not that the James Jones' book was much better).

Now, "We Were Soldiers"--the movie version of "We Were Soldier Once, and Young" by Hal Moore. Good accuracy in weapons depiction; good depiction of tactical situations.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Other than SSGT Layfayette Pool, who commanded three Fury's (Fury, Fury II, Fury III) was a "grizzled old man" of about 28, about 20 years younger than Brad Pitt. Also Fury III was an "Easy Eight" (from M4A3E8--phonetically, Mike four Able three Easy eight) not an M4A3 (it's a distinction with some serious differences). Also, none of the Furies were in a last ditch stand, and SSGT Pool survived the war (he was acclaimed as possibly the most successful tank commander of the war--few enough survived the entire war)..

Not a bad movie, but not the best, either. Way better than stinkers like U-571 or Pearl Harbor or Vague Pinkish Circle (not that the James Jones' book was much better).

Now, "We Were Soldiers"--the movie version of "We Were Soldier Once, and Young" by Hal Moore. Good accuracy in weapons depiction; good depiction of tactical situations.

"Legionnaire" with Jean Claude VanDamn was a surprisingly good (and little known) movie which was quite accurate with regards to the guns involved. As was the first "Mummy." And, boy did I want a Martini-Henry after watching "Zulu" for the first time! Now if only I could find one of the US-made Turkish contract guns....

 

[Jim Watson]

a "grizzled old man" of about 28, about 20 years younger than Brad Pitt.

Soldiering, cowboying, etc. are young man's work. The middle aged actors portraying characters in physically demanding positions is kind of amusing. But understandable, it takes a while to get to star status.

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

On the technical side of things....I was shocked to learn that most of the 1911's you saw in movies up to about the mid 80's are actually Star model B's. Read an article that said they had problems getting the 1911 to work correctly....now rather that is true or not...not sure.

The Star Model Bs and BMs were 9mm and they worked well with blanks with the higher pressure of the 9mm vs the lower pressure of the 45 blanks. It was hard get get the 1911 in 45 to work with blanks. Tom Selleck used a 9mm 1911 in Magnum PI (You can see the 9mm magazine he is inserting into the pistol at the opening credits).

Samuel Jackson used a nickel Star in Pulp Fiction. Kevin Costner carried a 9mm Star in The Untouchables. They're easy to spot because of the lack of grip safety.

Most "45s" in movies are 9mm blank firing guns.

Nick Nolte used a 9mm Commander in "Extreme Prejudice". The list goes on and on.

In the Jesse Stone movies on CBS, Tom Selleck carried his Gunsite Commander...so that is cool. He also carried a Gunsite Commander in the last season of Las Vegas.

BUT...Tom Selleck is definitely NOT anti-gun.

In the Comancheros, John Wayne carried his 1873 Peacemaker...but the movie supposedly took place in 1866. In Red River, after right after the war, his character Tom Dunson carried his Peacemaker....all of the actors carried Peacemakers.

What I liked about Lonesome Dove was that the characters carried such a mix...all the way from Colt cartridge conversions, to Peacemakers, to Smith & Wesson Schofields and Remingtons. Roscoe Brown even carried a Colt Patterson.

Young Riders...the series from 89-93, the characters all carried period correct pre-Civil War Colts and Remington cap&ball revolvers. One departure was Cody's Hawken...it was a CVA and had the modern adjustable micrometer rear sight.

Remember the "Bergmann 1911" that Michael McCandles carried in Big Jake? The 9mm semiauto? It was a dressed up Walther P38.

Good stuff.

 

[Jim Watson]

Rock Hudson had a cartridge conversion Colt in 'Seminole'. Too bad the action took place many years before they were made. Had to see why the prop department bothered.

 

[Mizar]

9mm Luger has a tapered casing, making it easier to feed & extract than .45 ACP and has more "meat" on the barrel - easier to grind and reshape where needed. But, as I described earlier, a .45 ACP 1911 can be made to work reliably. It's best done with bull barrel pistols, which don't have the pointed down barrel & bushing problem and it's hard to do and time consuming, but it can be done.

P.S. When we complain about some "out of time" weapons, or some downright stupid gun decisions that are made in some movie we have to understand first, that we are a minority - most of the people watching it will never notice. If it's a good movie then people will enjoy it, and if it's a bad one period correct guns won't save it...

 

[tark]

"We Were Soldier Once, and Young" by Hal Moore. Good accuracy in weapons depiction; good depiction of tactical situations.

yes, it was..

 

[RPZ]

Well here's a John Wayne gun trivia question. Name a movie he carried a gun but never drew it on anyone, nor fired it. I recall one, there may be more

 

[rskent]

The Longest Day