I don't make many post here, but I ran into this problem. I built an AR upper last summer in .458SOCOM, and was sharing it with my DPMS oracle lower for the time to save some cash. I decided to finish it up and buy an AR lower from a fairly high end custom gun shop that now offers their own AR-15 brand. The shop is Modern Outfitters located in Meridian Mississippi, and they're opening another location in Dallas, great shop and great people, I would suggest stopping in if you are ever nearby, reasonably priced lowers also. While I was in town I swung by to pick up a stripped lower, and they realized part way through that I couldn't buy it because I'm 20, not 21. They said their understanding with their ATF agent is that a person must be 21 to buy a stripped lower, because you can build it as a pistol. Is this correct, and has anyone else had this problem? I'm fairly educated on the gun laws but never even considered this. However with the amount of redundant and ignorant gun laws it doesn't surprise me. This just seems as dumb as requiring a person to be 21 to buy .223/5.56 because you could possibly put it in an AR-15 pistol. Oh yea even if I was 21, if I'm correct this would also mean I still couldn't buy it, because the shop is in Mississippi, and I live in Alabama. I would then have to have it shipped to an FFL in Alabama and then could pick it up. It sure is easy to accidentally commit a felony these days.
Must be 21 to buy an AR lower?
- Thread starter White35
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MaterDei
Member
A striped lower is classified as a 'firearm' and not a rifle and as I understand it you must be 21.
alexander45
Member
Intressting a striped lower isn't a rifle or pistol yet it's just a firearm I'm really unsure as to were that stands as I have always heard that the age limitations specifically mention long guns and pistols nothing about something that is just a firearm. It may be that the shop should handle it like 22lr ammo and ask as to what your intentions to build with it are. Or just not sell to people under 21 to officially cya
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
Just so you know your situation is not unique... and although you're not in California... the law here in CA states that one must be 18 yrs old to purchase a long gun but 21 yrs old to purchase a handgun. Other than mentioning that, I can't be of much help to you.
:-|
I was fully aware of the must be 21 to buy a pistol part, otherwise I would have bought one of their reasonably priced Glock 43s last year. I was specifically referring to this scenario. If it's supposed to be handled like 22lr ammo I would have been totally fine, I was already talking about the .458SOCOM rifle upper I was putting on it. Just seems ridiculous to not sell a lower for this reasoning because I CAN make it a pistol. With that logic you should have to be 21 to buy an ammo because pretty much every caliber has been turned into a pistol at some point.
newfalguy101
Member
A stripped lower is an "other" and as such, as per Federal law the transfer is handled the same way a handgun is.
Must be a state resident 21 or older.
It has nothing to do with what it *could* be built into, it has to do with the fact it is NOT a longgun, it does NOT have a barrel 16" or longer, or an OAL of at least 26". Likewise it is NOT a handgun
Must be a state resident 21 or older.
It has nothing to do with what it *could* be built into, it has to do with the fact it is NOT a longgun, it does NOT have a barrel 16" or longer, or an OAL of at least 26". Likewise it is NOT a handgun
MaterDei
Member
White, hopefully others will be able to give you more info here. Nevertheless, if your LGS is unwilling to sell/transfer to you until you are 21 your best bet is to find another LGS who interprets the law differently.
Good luck
EDIT- newfalguy101, just popped your bubble. Sorry, dude-
Good luck
EDIT- newfalguy101, just popped your bubble. Sorry, dude-
newfalguy101
Member
It wont matter one little bit what shop he goes to. See reply # 6
Looks like we posted at the same time MaterDei
MaterDei
Member
This is why the law is so bad.
Now that you know the law; you can just purchase a cheap AR rifle, sub $500, and drop your upper on it and be fully legal.
You're a young dude, who I admire, but this is a good opportunity for you to get to know how the world works. When you start doing tax returns this knowledge may serve you well.
Now that you know the law; you can just purchase a cheap AR rifle, sub $500, and drop your upper on it and be fully legal.
You're a young dude, who I admire, but this is a good opportunity for you to get to know how the world works. When you start doing tax returns this knowledge may serve you well.
I think the obvious answer is to just chalk this one up as another asinine law made by people with 0 firearms understanding, and apparently a lack of logical thinking. I just don't understand why they do not apply the same logic in all areas of gun laws. They're so misinformed they can't even make the wrong decision consistently. Then again I'm still not sure if this is a written thing, or just an interpretation.
And MaterDei I can promise you it took me about 2 seconds to make that conclusion. However I'll be 21 not too long from now, and really do not want a whole nother rifle at this point in time.
And MaterDei I can promise you it took me about 2 seconds to make that conclusion. However I'll be 21 not too long from now, and really do not want a whole nother rifle at this point in time.
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Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, and if they put the handgun upper on the rifle lower, it's a Federal felony. Same as taking a hacksaw to a shotgun and cutting the barrel to less than 18 inches.
"So, someone 18-20 years old (in most states) could buy an AR with a rifle length barrel? And since the barrel alone is not a firearm, the same person could purchase a pistol barrel upper?"
That would be correct. And I can not buy 9mm ammo because I am not 21, and it is "pistol" ammo, but I can buy .223 because it is "rifle" ammo. But I can not buy the stripped lower used commonly to make AR-15 rifles, because I could possibly make an AR-15 pistol.
That would be correct. And I can not buy 9mm ammo because I am not 21, and it is "pistol" ammo, but I can buy .223 because it is "rifle" ammo. But I can not buy the stripped lower used commonly to make AR-15 rifles, because I could possibly make an AR-15 pistol.
Al, it would not be a felony if I removed the buffer tube, and placed a pistol buffer on it. That way I would have legally turned an AR rifle into an AR pistol without violating any laws. That's why they said I couldn't buy the stripped lower, because I could possibly do that legal act. Keep in mind it is not illegal for me to own a pistol. So putting a pistol lower on a rifle lower that also has a rifle stock is a felony, however if you first remove the stock, it is no longer a felony. Owning a pistol upper, and no lower set up in the pistol format tho can bring about "constructive intent" I believe it's called. The idea that because you do not own the proper lower for the pistol upper, you have the intent to construct an illegal SBR.
Really need to figure out this quote tool thing.
The information in this paragraph is wrong, it actually is illegal to turn a rifle lower into a pistol, even when done so completely legally. Leaving it up for the sake of the conversation.
Really need to figure out this quote tool thing.
The information in this paragraph is wrong, it actually is illegal to turn a rifle lower into a pistol, even when done so completely legally. Leaving it up for the sake of the conversation.
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newfalguy101
Member
NO
You can not buy a stripped lower because it is NOT a longgun, period.
Persons under the age of 21 cannot legally purchase ( from an FFL ) anything except longguns, period.
newfalguy101
Member
As per Federal law:
First a rifle, ALWAYS a rifle.
So, yes, it would be illegal to install a short barrel upper on your AR-15 rifle, EVEN if you installed a pistol buffer first.
I'm seriously not trying to be insulting I'm solely looking at the interpretation of the law, so please don't take it that way newfal, but I'm pretty sure I can buy a Coca Cola from any FFL, so I would assume longuns are not the only thing I can buy there. And my understanding is that pistols can not be transferred to a person under the age of 21, and that a stripped lower is not a pistol, just like .223 is not "pistol ammo." If the lower is technically a "firearm" and you have to be 21 to buy a "firearm" in the legal definition, then it would make a little more sense. I'm currently googling what the legal age requirement to buy a firearm is, not something easy to find. My point is a stripped lower is not a pistol, therefore I'm not sure why it should have to be treated as a pistol just because it can be turned into one. A chunk of aluminum, or any other AR ever made, can be turned into a pistol, so why are they not treated as pistols also?
In the post that you want to quote, the right lower corner, click on on the "quick reply to this message" icon. Then the text box in the lower portion of the thread, there is a check box for "Quote message in reply?". Check the box. If you want to edit/delete part of the quote, after checking the box, click on Go Advanced.
Newfal guy and Al ya'll are correct, you actually can not turn a rifle lower into a pistol, even when it's done completely legally. I apologize for the misinformation. The more I learn the more these laws make my blood boil, solely on the ignorance and inability to enforce them.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
White35 said:
That would be a felony. Once the receiver is a rifle, it's a rifle, even if you take the stock off. Now it's just a rifle with a stock. It still needs to comply with barrel and overall length requirements.
orionengnr
Member
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You are developing a sense of cynicism well beyond your years, and you display an ability to express yourself well.
Keep up the good work on both counts.
Thank you kcofohio, I'm use to the "quote" button on the 458 forums.
As far as the "once a rifle always a rifle" this article confuses me....according to it, if a lower is made into a rifle FIRST you can never make it into a pistol, but it also says that if you first make the lower into a pistol, you can make it into a rifle, and back into a pistol as much as you want to. To me "once a rifle always a rifle" would mean, once you ever make it into a rifle, you can never go back. Am I correct in this thought or is the article?
Link to article
http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2013/11/20/ar-15-pistols-clearing-up-some-misconceptions/
newfalguy101
Member
FIRST a rifle always a rifle.
First a pistol, you can change back and forth all you want, it IS legal to build a rifle out of a pistol, however, it is NOT legal to build a pistol out of a rifle
First a pistol, you can change back and forth all you want, it IS legal to build a rifle out of a pistol, however, it is NOT legal to build a pistol out of a rifle
Laws like this make about as much sense as making it illegal to put both socks on before you put the first shoe on.
newfalguy101
Member
Re-read post #6
What the lower CAN be built into has ZERO effect on what it IS now.
That same lower can be built into a pistol, or with the knowledge and parts a machine gun, however, that has NOTHING to do with what it is NOW.
You would be well served ignore the "it can be a pistol" thinking and look at what it is NOW, or rather what it is not.
It is not a longgun because it does not meet the definition of a longgun.
It is not a pistol because it does not meet the definition of a pistol.
It is not a shotgun because it does not meet the definition of a shotgun.
On the Form 4473 it is Identified as an "other" as it does not meet any other definition. And as such, the licensee can NOT sell a firearm OTHER than a rifle or shotgun to anybody under the age of 21
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