Must be 21 to buy an AR lower?

[White35]

Re-read post #6

What the lower CAN be built into has ZERO effect on what it IS now.

That same lower can be built into a pistol, or with the knowledge and parts a machine gun, however, that has NOTHING to do with what it is NOW.

You would be well served ignore the "it can be a pistol" thinking and look at what it is NOW, or rather what it is not.

It is not a longgun because it does not meet the definition of a longgun.

It is not a pistol because it does not meet the definition of a pistol.

It is not a shotgun because it does not meet the definition of a shotgun.

On the Form 4473 it is Identified as an "other" as it does not meet any other definition. And as such, the licensee can NOT sell a firearm OTHER than a rifle or shotgun to anybody under the age of 21

I already addressed that in reply number 17

If the lower is technically a "firearm" and you have to be 21 to buy a "firearm" in the legal definition, then it would make a little more sense. I'm currently googling what the legal age requirement to buy a firearm is, not something easy to find. My point is a stripped lower is not a pistol, therefore I'm not sure why it should have to be treated as a pistol just because it can be turned into one.

If it does not fall under any definition for rifle, pistol, shotgun ect. it would be an AOW I assume? I can't find an age limit on owning an AOW, but with the assumption than an AOW falls under the NFA, I should still be legally able to buy a lower at 18, because it is not a pistol, and not currently requiring NFA registration. This is my interpretation.

Article on being able to own an NFA at 18+

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2015/05/can-an-18-year-old-build-an-sbr-sbs-or-other-nfa-firearm.html

Also it says you must be 21 to buy an NFA item from an FFL, but 18 to build one. Since it is not an NFA item, or a pistol, I see no 21+ requirement applicable.

I want to say again that the gun shop is awesome, they're being safe which is completely understandable. I will be going back when I'm 21, buying, and then having the items transferred to an FFL in my state.

 

[dogmush]

Still nope.

"Any Other Weapon" is a specific subset of firearms regulated by the NFA.

A receiver is a firearm that doesn't fir into the definition of rifle, pistol, shotgun, or NFA. it's an "other firearm" (Notice that's not capitalized) Two different things, similar names.


Also to clarify, or just reword the posts from the other folks (who were correct) the Federal Law in question does not actually say you can't by a pistol from an FFL unless you're over 21. What it says is that you can't buy ANY firearm from an FFL until you're 21, then it makes an exception for Rifles and Shotguns. So ANY firearm is verbotten, unless it fits either the rifle or shotgun definition. As was said, it has nothing to do with what you could make the lower in to, but rather the fact that it does not meet the exemption to allow it's sale to someone under 21.

 

[200Apples]

What it says is that you can't buy ANY firearm from an FFL until you're 21, then it makes an exception for Rifles and Shotguns.

Ah HAH.

See.

 

[badkarmamib]

An easy workaround would be to buy an assembled rifle lower. Honestly, they aren't that much more expensive. Get a mil-spec tube on it, you can swap to any stock. Trigger swaps are 2 pins. The only 2 swaps to worry about are bolt catch (really recommend not) and trigger guard (which isn't too bad if you support the other side of the receiver).

 

[White35]

That is a good explanation, of a ridiculously confusing set of laws dogmush. I still believe it is an ignorant law, and inconsistent since ammo isn't regulated to only people 21+ just because it is possible to be used in a pistol, that's what they are accomplishing with that wording for a "firearm." I get that it's a catch all wording, but that's the main goal I can see from it. I'm still not entirely sure why they believe 18+ legally buying a pistol is somehow more dangerous than a 21+ legally buying a pistol. Now if only I can convince the ATF to have the same opinions as me.

 

[White35]

An easy workaround would be to buy an assembled rifle lower. Honestly, they aren't that much more expensive. Get a mil-spec tube on it, you can swap to any stock. Trigger swaps are 2 pins. The only 2 swaps to worry about are bolt catch (really recommend not) and trigger guard (which isn't too bad if you support the other side of the receiver).

I was under the impression that that would be the same thing as buying a stripped lower...however if it already has a rifle buffer tube on it, then it could be "designated" a rifle lower. I'm not sure if that would be any different than just a stripped lower, but its worth looking into. It still may come down to the fact that you're not buying a "rifle" like the guys before have said. That it's a "other weapon" or what not, since it does not have a 16/16+ barrel on it.

Also, if I was 21, would this mean I do the background check, receive the "other weapon" and go home, or do I have to transfer it to my home state, then do the background check, then take it home? Because the shop I am buying it at is not in my home state.

 

[pjeski]

I was under the impression that that would be the same thing as buying a stripped lower...however if it already has a rifle buffer tube on it, then it could be "designated" a rifle lower. I'm not sure if that would be any different than just a stripped lower, but its worth looking into. It still may come down to the fact that you're not buying a "rifle" like the guys before have said. That it's a "other weapon" or what not, since it does not have a 16/16+ barrel on it.

Also, if I was 21, would this mean I do the background check, receive the "other weapon" and go home, or do I have to transfer it to my home state, then do the background check, then take it home? Because the shop I am buying it at is not in my home state.

No. Even a fully assembled rifle lower complete with a stock is NOT a rifle, it is still a receiver/other.

 

[White35]

That's what I figured would be the case.

 

[badkarmamib]

Sorry for the misinformation. I assumed that "if it is first configured with a buttstock, it is forever a rifle" would mean that an assembled lower that is forced to spend its life as a rifle, would be sold as such.

 

[stchman]

A striped lower is classified as a 'firearm' and not a rifle and as I understand it you must be 21.

By that rationale, one must be 21 to buy an AR-15 rifle. The lower could be easily used to make an AR-15 pistol.

 

[rbernie]

By that rationale, one must be 21 to buy an AR-15 rifle

Not if it was sold as a rifle. But that's neither here nor there to the OP.

The 4473 form is used to document the sale of a long gun, a handgun, or something neither long gun nor handgun by an FFL. What is relevant to the FFL and the 4473 is what form the object has at the time of sale - how it will be used/configured in the future is irrelevant.

If you're buying a complete rifle, as legally defined, the seller checks 'long gun' and the laws for selling long guns applies. If you're buying a handgun, the seller checks 'handgun' and the laws for selling handguns applies. If you're buying a firearm that is neither a long gun nor a handgun as they are legally defined by the USC, then the seller checks 'other' and the laws for 'other' apply.

Since there are no specific laws for 'other', and the laws for long guns are an exception to the 'standard rules covering everything' (including handguns) - 'other' is the same as 'handgun'.

It has nothing to do with how it will be used, and everything to do with how it exists at the time of sale.

And since a AR-15 lower is a serialized 'firearm' that is neither a long gun (yet) or a handgun (yet), it is an 'other' that must be treated like a handgun. Once the lower is mated to an upper, it becomes either a long gun or a hand gun (or an NFA item).

 

[pjeski]

By that rationale, one must be 21 to buy an AR-15 rifle. The lower could be easily used to make an AR-15 pistol.

It's not a matter of rationale. A weapon is what it is, not what it could be made into.

A stripped receiver is not a rifle. A complete receiver with a stock and no upper is not a rifle.

 

[lysanderxiii]

FIRST a rifle always a rifle.

First a pistol, you can change back and forth all you want, it IS legal to build a rifle out of a pistol, however, it is NOT legal to build a pistol out of a rifle

Which makes life confusing if you have several upper, rifle and pistol and several lowers, rifle and pistol....

 

[Al Thompson]

White35, with rbernie's excellent post, I'm going to call this one "asked and answered".

I appreciate your maturity and hope you continue to participate on THR!