Muzzle blast and shooting at night.

[JMusic]

During my younger years I attended a course that taught the use of muzzle blast as a method to immediately shoot a second shot. The technique taught you that the muzzle blast was like a flashbulb that burned an image that allowed for a second accurate shot. This was taught with shotgun at 25 yds and pistol at 7. Two questions: One, has anyone received simular training and two has todays methods rendered this training obsolete? With some ammo being promoted as "reduced muzzle blast" so as not to blind the shooter, I can't help but wonder if I have missed something.
Jim

 

[ShackleMeNot]

How do you know where your first shot is going?

 

[JMusic]

The course was a 50 yd PPC multi lane course. Lighting was ambiant from club house, single HPS outdoor light,(about 75 yds away) and moon light. We were able to make out the silhouette of the B-27. Shotgun was easier to aquire the sights, for the closer to the target the darker it was. Frankly first shot was mostly pointing at the target. Many had trouble hitting the target on the first shot but most were able to on the second. This was a course I attended in the Mid 70's for LE officers. I have used the term "muzzle blast" Muzzle flash would have been the appropriate word. Sorry.
Jim

 

[Oldtimer]

Muzzle "flash" can't really be relied upon for making follow-up shots at night, since the flash will be so sudden and bright. Your best bet is to "point shoot", and to move your position as quickly as possible, for the muzzle flash will give away your position.

 

[JMusic]

Thanks for responding Oldtimer. Though you listed very valid reasons why this would be problematic for "aimed fire" and a more probable point shoot it actually worked out to be the opposite. The first shot was fired at the silhouette in what you could call a point shoot. Though I could not see my sights I could make out he target (barely) and the outline of the firearm. For this example lets say the firearm was a shotgun Rem 870. Upon the first firing you were to concentrate on the bright flash you described and the picture that was developed. What I saw upon shooting was the target "brightly lit" and the shotgun including the front sight. Most importantly what also was exposed was the relationship between the two. If you were 4 inches to the right you could see this in a mental picture. You immediatley compensated and fired again. The second shot was incredibly accurate. I would not have believed it if I had not been shown this technique. This was a course for tactical and swat members. Many in this class had just returned from Nam and had fought at night. I had coon hunted most my life but had never picked up on this mental picture established. Remember this was prior to high intensity gun mounted lighting and prior to laser sights. Maybe it is a lost or no longer needed technique, but it is amazing how well it works with little practice. Just another tool for those who are open to try. Your right about one thing though Oldtimer, don't stay in one place long after firing. The same applies though for those who use lasers or lights.
Jim

 

[Cut Throat Job]

the muzzle flash will give away your position.

i agree with you

muzzle flash doesnt really seem helpful to me. it seems more like a negative aspect to night shooting.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Paul Weston, former NYPD instructor and author of Combat Shooting For Police, wrote about this method in 1960.
I was taught to use it up close and rapid fire in total darkness so as to light up the bad guy more ways than one.
Others are correct about shooting at muzzle flashes.
Col. Applegate mentions this in his book Kill Or get Killed which was first written in 1943.

 

[Ryder]

Perhaps the missing link is the excellent night sights found on so many self defense weapons these days?

Getting the first shot off accurately in the dark has always been my biggest concern. After that I rely on muscle memory and rhythm to tell me when my alignment has recovered from recoil. I've gotten some nice groups doing this but that's on a stationary target and not in darkness so total I couldn't see the target.

When I ride my motorcycle in thunderstorms at night I close one eye. When the eye I am seeing through is blinded by a near lightening strike I open the other. Could that be an option for aimed shooting at night? I never experimented with it but it's an interesting concept. With night sights on a handgun could you potentially alternate the sighting eye every other shot and negate the flash blinding affect? Hmmm, something new under the Sun... errr Moon

 

[Jeff White]

I always found the muzzle flash to be distracting at night. It can ruin your nightvision. Contrary to what the hopolophobes would have you believe, a flash hider is installed to protect the shooter's night vision, not to hide his firing signature from the bad guy.

I never tried using the muzzle flash to illuminate the target. I have timed shots with the white strobe on the light bar of the squad car during night shoots. I can tell you that that works very well.

A lot of the powders used nowdays are pretty low flash anyway.

Jeff

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think the idea of the followup shot isn't because the muzzle flash has been beneficial, but because as Jeff pointed out about night vision being ruined, but because that is the last thing you are going to be able to see for a while. What appeared in the flash is now your last known target location.

JMusic, the tactic sounds pretty stupid from a control standpoint. In real life, that second shot will most likely miss the target and you will then be left standing blindly in the dark, wondering what bystander you shot down range.

Take your 870 example. The first shot lights up things and shows the relationship between you and the bad guy. Let's say you were 4" off as you noted and so you pump the 870 and then fire the second shot making the 4" correction. While that sounds wonderful, it isn't.

Was the first shot 4" off the target? If so, you screwed up.

Was the first shot 4" off from where you intended, but on the target? If so, you now have a bad guy that has been hit by a shotgun blast. Just what do you think the odds are that the bad guy you just shot is going to be standing in the same place by the time you get off your second shot? Chances are, he is either going down or moving laterally, but not standing still. You will end up with an "incredibly accurate" second shot that will completely miss because the bad guy is no longer present in the position he was during the first shot.

I have no doubt that the technique is/was very effective for non-living stationary targets. I equally have no doubt that the technique is extremely dangerous and irresponsible as you are firing the second shot at a last known location without the ability to see if the target is still present there or not.

What was that rule? Know your target, backstop, and beyond?

For the second shot, you won't know your target as it moved. You won't know the backstop unless it is in the immediate flash vicinity. You definitely won't know what is beyond because the flash didn't illuminate very far down range and now your night vision sucks.

 

[JMusic]

Stupid or not it works. Double not I have to wonder if you know what an immediate second shot is if you think the BG has moved out of range. I knew this would draw some out of the wood work on know your target. That is not what my original post asked. At the time I was trained in this it was considered a genuine survival tactic. Everyone is right about night blindness. Two questions.
When do you think most "encounters" occur, night or day?
If at night what to you do to avoid night blindness, not shoot? Close your eyes?
Jim

 

[JMusic]

Jeff I too was trained to use the strobe and not just with handguns. We also trained in timed fire with high powered rifles and scopes. Even with the cruisers 200 ft away the target was very visible.
Thanks