Muzzle-brake or Suppressor? Or Both?

[The_Next_Generation]

Hey guys,

I wasn't sure if this would go in the Rifle, NFA, or Accessories category. Oh well, here's my spiel.

What if you had a "muzzle-brake" that was relatively long (~6in), and had many small holes (~1mm) in a line down each side of the cylinder? Then suppose that these holes were bored at an angle back and away from the shooter?

Here's a visual:


Would this serve to suppress the sound of the exit gases? I tried a similar technique in building a suppressor for my potato cannon, and it worked quite well. Of course, it hissed a little when fired, but it was much quieter.

The next question is whether or not this would be considered a muzzle-brake (not internal baffles) or a suppressor (reduces report of the gunshot).

I considered building an actual suppressor on my school's lathe, but of course I soon realized that doing so would be a no-no. So I came up with this idea instead. If I decide to try this idea, I would test it on the .22 before anything bigger.

What do you guys think?
- The Next Generation

EDIT: The black lines in the cross-sectional view are the holes to be drilled into the material. The white space around them represent solid material, not empty space or baffles.

 

[pikid89]

seems to be basically just normal barrel porting

and barrel porting makes guns far louder

 

[Jim Watson]

Agreed, but if you happened to get it to where it DID reduce the sound level any detectable amount, it would legally be a silencer and subject to legal restriction.
Illegal if done without PRIOR government approval.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

I guess even if it was manufactured/marketed as a muzzle-brake, it would be skating a thin line (certainly not worth trouble with the boys at the BATFE).

Pikid89 - It is similar to barrel porting, but my thinking was that the smaller holes would only allow some of the gases to escape at a time, not all of them. This would combat the typical blast associated with ported barrels.

Does anyone know if this has been tried before?

 

[General Geoff]

No matter how small the holes, it will still make the report louder than without the holes.

What happens when you put a pinhole into the exhaust manifold of a car? It gets louder, not quieter.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Muzzle breaks don't make guns any louder. They just redirect the blast and that makes them sound alot ouder to the shooter because the blast is no longer directed away from him but off to the side or top. It is all relivant. If you were actually being shot by a gun with a break it would reduce the noise that comes your way as much of it was being blown back on the shooter.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

So if I were to machine this, it would be considered a muzzle-brake and not a suppressor?

 

[The_Next_Generation]

Maybe I'm better off shooting an email to the ATF..

 

[Shadow 7D]

Here is the ATF definition of a silencer

A device that will lower the report of a firearm by 1 decibel
1 time

in any caliber
by their definition, a pop bottle securely taped on the end of a .22 is a silencer

just saying...
the 'barrel shroud' on the GSG MP5 was recalled, seems that in a .22 a large chamber with a small exit hole =

more than one decibel of noise reduction
BTW, BAFTE approved design...
just say'n

 

[The_Next_Generation]

Where does the BATFE measure decibels? From the muzzle of the weapon? Downrange X yards? To the side of the shooter?

The reason I ask is because I think that by redirecting the gases of a .22LR towards the shooter, noise may be reduced from the target's (bunny/squirrel/whatever) percective, but increased from the shooters perspective. Of course, if the shooter had a solid structure behind him/her (i.e. A concrete wall) then the sound of the gases would bounce off the wall and be detected by the target.

Is this correct?

I dont know a whole lot about sound waves and such, so if I am wrong and need correcting go right ahead, its always welcome!

- TNG

 

[o Unforgiven o]

Silencers work by slowing down and reducing the pressure of the gasses emitted when firing. Muzzle brakes work by redirecting the high pressure fast moving gasses in a direction opposing that of recoil.

If you want to quiet the shot then the slowed, lower pressure gasses would be ideal.

If you want to effectively use those gasses to reduce recoil than faster moving, higher pressure gasses would be ideal.

Both of these things use the same gasses but for them to work in a beneficial way require them to be on opposite ends of the spectrum. So by combining the two you get neither a quieter gun, or a recoil reduction to said gun.

Also, the added weight of a silencer (more a by-product of how far forward the weight is than of the weight itself) does a pretty good job reducing muzzle flip even though it does not aid in recoil reduction.

These are just my .2 cents however and if you want to test this for yourself than who am I to discourage you.

(Do also remember that I am typing this at 5:30am and I may not be thinking rationally due to the medications I was prescribed for my cold.)

 

[D94R]

I don't see anything resembling a silencer/suppressor in your picture (other than the physical appearance of a "can"). There are no chambers to trap and slow down the gasses, just ports in a barrel extension.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Know what, if you don't want to bother with the legalities, ain't nobody in the world to stop you

But...
the ATF isn't know for being forgiving
so write the tech branch and get a letter, either they say OK or then don't
BUT an unlicensed silencer isn't something to play with, unless you wanna live with bubba for the next 10 years.

Edit
it's the size of the ports
the series of baffles leading to small ports will work to quite/change the pitch of the report
BUT if you take a solid extension and just mill the holes straight through like every other muzzle break, then you don't have holding chambers like his drawing shows.

 

[rcmodel]

I don't see anything resembling a silencer in your picture

+1

It's not a silencer, and it won't make shooting it quieter.

It's just porting with small ports.

Louder to the shooter, perhaps not as loud to the squirrel in case you miss him, because of that big chunk of hardware on the end of your barrel.

rc

 

[Shadow 7D]

Yeah, but RC, look what happened with the GSG 5
it has the potential

 

[zfk55]

Like this?



We make brakes, but not for the public.

 

[D94R]

BUT if you take a solid extension and just mill the holes straight through like every other muzzle break, then you don't have holding chambers like his drawing shows.

His picture shows now chambers. It's a solid barrel extension, with ~1mm holes drilled directly into the barrel. The black lines would be the holes, the white voids are solid material.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

D94R is correct, the black lines in the cross-sectional view are the 1mm holes, and the white space around them is solid material.

zfk55, yes, that is basically what I am talking about. Where did you get that image? Ideally, there would be no gas leaving the "brake" in the same direction as the bullet. Basically, my idea is the picture you posted, only with all of the gas traveling sideways and rearward.

I'm drafting a letter to the BATFE, I will try and market it as a muzzle brake (gases aren't slowed down, no baffles, etc.). Even though I am a minor, I don't want my parents, or my future, to face any consequences.

Thanks again guys,

- TNG

 

[zfk55]

We make the most effective Brake for the Swiss rifle anywhere on the market, bar none. In order for you to have a brake that allows no gas passage at the muzzle in a .308 caliber, it would have to be nearly 2 feet long.

This is our caliber and projectile specific k31 Brake with a proven 27% reduction in felt recoil by metering. It too allows the passage of gas at the muzzle. no way around it from a practical standpoint.





R&D on this device took three months and 11 prototypes. The angle and diameter of the ports is a critical performance factor.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

Thanks for the info zkf55. Because I am not planning on trying this on anything above a .22lr, I figured I might be able to accomplish zero gas passage.

This project will lean towards the "grins and giggles" side of things, I am not planning on making something practical. Basically, if it ends up 10 or 12 inches long, thats ok.

Great pictures!
-TNG

 

[rcmodel]

Ideally, there would be no gas leaving the "brake" in the same direction as the bullet.

Ideally, there would be no excess gas to deal with in the first place.

But that isn't going to happen either!

rc

 

[Shadow 7D]

Ah, I took that for a baffled design, with every baffle having a 1mm hole

Guns you can't touch with out your parents permission
piece of stuff to go on it, or pieces of it
you are fine

Hmm
have you considered a Barrett-esq piece about 1.5" from the muzzle, the spacing and redirection would improve recoil performance.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

Shadow, that is a very interesting idea. In my non-expert opinion, I would venture to say that it might work.

The current intent of my project is to machine a muzzle break that reduces noise from the target's perspective by redirecting exit gases. I would think that using the Barrett design you suggest (kind of neat to have their advertisement directly below your post by the way!) may end up increasing the effective "shake" of a shot. When the gases leave the muzzle (in a forward direction) the push backward on the barrel, creating part of the recoil. Then they would need to be funneled into the muzzle brake that is 1.5" away. If the muzzle brake was effective in this situation, the gases would then "pull" on the rifle. However, I would think that the gases would have expanded too much and as a result the brake would be less effective than if it were attached to the barrel sans-spacing.

Interesting idea though, would be fun to try!

 

[Shadow 7D]

You have to work on it, mind you the ones I've handles were on the .50's and lets just say the are VERY effective (got rocked by one standing about 6" away from the shooter)

So, like the other guy said, you have to tune it, but the idea is to reduce the noise from the targets perspective, this would do it, a tight baffle with large angled flanges redirecting the SOUND and gasses sideways, the space would allow the gasses to depressurize and the trick would be what distance for what caliber do you get the most gasses pushed sideways, which is different than the HP gasses pushing forward for recoil control. Here you you are probably looking for medium pressure, so you only get a puff with the bullet and a huge doughnut. Actually I'd do two larger holes straight up, along with the angle iron back.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

Thank you for the clarification, I see what you mean now. Guess I'll spend some time this evening throwing it into Autodesk's Inventor.

Then I'll try to convince my physics teacher to let me use his CNC mill and lathe

This will be interesting..

- TNG