Muzzleloader Optics

[Hookeye]

The old Knight Wolverine w a 4x scope worked very well.

The equipment was a given, efficient, easy to use.
It was a killing machine.
For me.

Kinda felt wrong after a couple seasons.
So went back to side hammer.

But even then, after a few years I grew to dislike all BP and a pretty side hammer was just a PITA.

Klling deer gets harder year after year.
Am content nowadays to see deer. Don't have to shoot em.

Getting weird in my old age.

Won't drag my Hawken out unless there's a good buck around after gun season and I still have a tag.
And yeah, I'll pizz and moan about cleaning it.

 

[Hookeye]

Now here's the rub (no pun intended- deer hunting afterall)
My Hawken sometimes bashes my face. Dropped to 90gr FFg and a 275gr Maxihunter.
It smacks less often w lighter load.
What I really need to do is raise the sights a bit (taller front, spacer under rear).
Or just screw on a weaver base at rear sight location and add a reflex/ reddot.
Not joking.
Got bifocals now too.
Do I blaspheme the old rig or just say screw it and buy an inline? (for optics use)

Best bet is to buck out in warmer bow season LOL

 

[Hookeye]

A reflex at the rear sight location would help w my eyes, not detract too much from the rifle's looks and also not affect feel/carry.
And it'd be non magnifying.

 

[420]

Gotcha.

So, in your opinion, modern muzzle loaders should only be legal in rifle season?

Thanks, CraigC.

 

[Hookeye]

I do get what Craig C is saying.
Primitive seasons were initially to be for primitive equipment.

The allowance for more modern gear in them...........one asks "why"?

Is it to increase the success rate or number of licenses sold?
or is it simply people management.....changed w the times?

Some people just want an advantage afield.
No doubt some want an advantage over their fellow hunter.

 

[Hookeye]

A lot of different people deer hunt.
Some are archers first, or traditionalists first.

My eyes aint what they used to be.
Have a pretty sidehammer.
May yet put an optic on it.

Don't care what others think.
Why put an optic on a kinda sorta traditonal MZ?

If it works, why not?
Not really wanting to buy another MZ as I'm no longer into the BP thing.
One for me, is enough.
If an optic helps me continue to use it...........so be it.

 

[Hookeye]

I do know some late season is brutal weather open field fencerow stuff.
Friends and acquaintances have gotten magnum inlines and BDC scopes for long range shots.
My buds dads farm was like that.
Gear for specific type of shot.

I don't need a deer that bad, even if a big rack.

 

[Gerd33]

Is it to increase the success rate or number of licenses sold?

Here they've continually expanded the seasons and the increased the allowed methods as the deer population has increased over the years, I presume to increase or at least maintain harvest numbers. I say maintain because the number of deer taken in the state has stayed rather consistent year to year for the last 15 or so years despite the additional seasons and method changes.

When I started hunting in the early-mid 80s we had an Archery season (bow only) and an 9 day firearms season, with a single Buck tag guaranteed for firearms season, with the possibility of getting an Anydeer tag from a Lottery draw.

In 1988, a 3 day Muzzleloader season was added which later expanded to a week. I should note it always took place after the main firearm season so no early access as initially the ML season was in early December. Additionally the Anydeer tag became the basic firearms tag and the possibility of a bonus Anterless tag was added.

Since that point:

• Two youth (Under 16) firearms weekends have been added, one before and one after the main firearms season.
• An Anterless only weekend was added in early December, recently expended to a 9 days (for most counties)
• An early firearms Anterless only weekend in select counties (new this year)
• Regular firearms season expanded from 8 to 10 days, (and this year in some counties up to 15)
• Crossbows added as regular equipment to archery season, previously usable with only a medical reason ie: bad shoulder.
• Available tags have increased, Currently: Archery (2 Any Deer, Unlimited Anterless ). Firearms (1 Any Deer, Up to 4 Anterless depending on county)
• Muzzleloader season moved, to accomodate the early Dec Anterless season, from early December to the end of the year (Dec 23 - Jan 4).

Several years ago the Muzzleloader designation was dropped entirely and replaced with Alternate Methods with what's allowed listed below, essentially anything that's not a centerfire rifle or Shotgun.
The most relevant of which is probably the addition of Centerfire handguns.

2023 Alternative Methods Portion: Allowed Methods

Muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms, .40 caliber or larger
and capable of firing only a single projectile at one dis-
charge. In-lines and scopes are allowed.
Multiple-barreled muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms
and/or muzzleloading or cap-and-ball handguns (see defi-
nition on Page 66), including revolvers, .40 caliber or larger,
are allowed and may be carried in addition to a muzzle-
loading or cap-and-ball rifle.
Centerfire handguns (see definition on Page 66) using
expanding-type bullets such as lead or copper
Air-powered guns, .40 caliber or larger, charged only from
an external high-compression power source (external hand
pump, air tank, or air compressor)
Air bows
Longbows, compound bows, and recurve bows of any draw
weight. Hand-held string-releasing devices, illuminated
sights, scopes, and quickpoint sights are allowed.
Crossbows
Atlatls

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Of course there are exceptions or caveats state by state. Some allow optics, some don't, seasons for types of muzzle loaders can be different, etc. About the only thing that is not clear to me is I've seen regulations stating that the muzzle loader can't be loadable from the breach. Is there a muzzle loader that can breach loaded??? Kind of a rhetorical question (in terms of not wanting to derail the thread, but I don't know and am genuinely want to). In the end, despite all these various characteristics and regulations they're all muzzle loaders (let's forget about the breach thing I just commented on). No different than states' regulations stating legal means for rifle season is a center fire... except for some if it's a bottleneck (versus straight wall).

Barring powder, projectile, and primer they're simply concerning a difference of case shape. Of course I understand it goes beyond that. But, do you challenge that a rifle shooting a bottleneck cartridge is not a rifle like a modern inline muzzle loader is not a muzzle loader?

I'm not trying to be obtuse. Just making conversation and trying to learn. I appreciate your previous response which was useful versus "whatever dude".

Thanks.

PS This is coming from a guy that may buy an inline. And I'll absolutely put an optic on it. Like I previously said I also put an optic on a 45-70. I guess I'm less than traditional.

Ferguson rifle, flintlock that can be loaded from the breech or the muzzle.

 

[hawg]

Of course there are exceptions or caveats state by state. Some allow optics, some don't, seasons for types of muzzle loaders can be different, etc. About the only thing that is not clear to me is I've seen regulations stating that the muzzle loader can't be loadable from the breach. Is there a muzzle loader that can breach loaded???

If you can load it from the breech it's not a muzzleloader. The muzzle is at the other end.

 

[mavracer]

The allowance for more modern gear in them...........one asks "why"?

It's because the modern inline muzzleloader didn't exist when the primitive muzzleloader seasons started.
IMHO gear makes little difference with regard to success.
Generally good hunters will get deer with whatever gun they choose bad hunters account for unfilled tags

 

[CraigC]

It's because the modern inline muzzleloader didn't exist when the primitive muzzleloader seasons started.
IMHO gear makes little difference with regard to success.
Generally good hunters will get deer with whatever gun they choose bad hunters account for unfilled tags

Little difference? By that logic, modern rifles offer no advantage in the field over an iron sighted flintlock. A modern inline triples your effective range and significantly extends your usable shooting light.

 

[.38 Special]

Muzzleloader enthusiasts (and archers) lobbied for special seasons and based the argument on their much lower success rates. So I think it's reasonable to argue that scoped inlines, compounds, etc. aren't really within the spirit of those seasons.

As has been pointed out, though, there are a lot more deer now than there were back then, so it's probably not worth arguing about anymore.

I suppose the argument could be made that there is room for primitive seasons - longbows only, flintlocks only, etc. - but I'm not sure we need even more seasons and regulations at this point.

 

[hawg]

I would rather muzzleloading season be limited to flintlocks than to allow inlines.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Those that want a more primitive season have the option to use a bow during archery season.

 

[hawg]

I messed my shoulder up years ago and can't draw a bow and hold it. I can't go bowling or throw a baseball. I don't have a flintlock either.

 

[mavracer]

Little difference? By that logic, modern rifles offer no advantage in the field over an iron sighted flintlock. A modern inline triples your effective range and significantly extends your usable shooting light.

A good Hunter will adapt to the limits and still be successful.

 

[CraigC]

View attachment 1175754
A good Hunter will adapt to the limits and still be successful.

The logic in that "point" is heavily, heavily flawed.

 

[mavracer]

Hunting is obviously harder for some folks.

Curious Deer walks up to Hunter Video

Video taken 11/20/2016 at the Ten Mile River Scout Camp by a Sunrise Farm Rod & Gun Club member using a GoPro Hero Session.

youtu.be

And

Magical Encounter Between Hunters and Deer

This family had a magical encounter with a beautiful and curious deer 🦌#wildlife #hunting #deer #game –Do you love human interest stories?Subscribe to our c...

youtu.be

 

[CraigC]

Hunting is obviously harder for some folks.

Curious Deer walks up to Hunter Video

Video taken 11/20/2016 at the Ten Mile River Scout Camp by a Sunrise Farm Rod & Gun Club member using a GoPro Hero Session.

youtu.be

And

Magical Encounter Between Hunters and Deer

This family had a magical encounter with a beautiful and curious deer 🦌#wildlife #hunting #deer #game –Do you love human interest stories?Subscribe to our c...

youtu.be

Deer walked into my camp two days ago. This is evidence of what, exactly? That sometimes dumb critters do dumb things?

Tripling a firearm's effective range increases your odds of success. So does adding a half hour of shooting light to each end of the day. Otherwise, what was the point in those advances? If I apply your logic to the development of firearms and related accessories, if "gear makes little difference with regard to success" was a true statement, there was absolutely no point in going beyond the matchlock. Hell, why not just stick to throwing rocks and sticks, if "gear makes little difference with regard to success"??? This shouldn't have to be argued.

If the point is that people hunting with less advanced equipment will make up for those compromises through their own ability, you're doing a horrible job of making it. It's irrelevant anyway.

 

[mavracer]

This shouldn't have to be argued.

And yet here we are lol.
First off I prefaced the statement with IMHO second I did use the term "little difference" not "no difference"
If you need to triple your effective range to harvest a deer, what does that say about your hunting ability that you can't get closer.
A good hunter surely can be quiet and sit still for 20 or 30 minutes without spooking the deer while the sun comes up.
I don't even want to get into the ethics of shooting when it's too dark to use irons in the evening.
Lots of good hunters kill deer with sticks every year during archery season.
Heck with the deer population in KS IMHO using a modern bolt action 308 with today's optics isn't deer hunting it's deer shooting. Hunting implies the possibility of failure, but of course if one fails it's easier to blame the equipment.

 

[CraigC]

If you need to triple your effective range to harvest a deer, what does that say about your hunting ability that you can't get closer.

Very enlightening. So everybody who uses a modern bolt gun to hunt beyond 100yds has no hunting ability? You also seem to forget that I've primarily hunted with handguns for the last 40yrs so your subtle implications fall a little short. Your point is irrelevant anyway. This isn't about hunting ability. It's about the capability of the equipment. It is an indisputable fact that modern rifles have far greater effective range, that hunters uses that range to their advantage and kill game much further away than would be possible with a traditional muzzleloader.

A good hunter surely can be quiet and sit still for 20 or 30 minutes without spooking the deer while the sun comes up.

Irrelevant.

I don't even want to get into the ethics of shooting when it's too dark to use irons in the evening.

Really? So all the advances in modern optics have been a total waste of time? I guess folks just imagine all that light transmission that allows folks to see game and the reticle in a scope, where they cannot as easily see with their naked eye. Fascinating. Have you ever actually hunted in the woods???

Hunting implies the possibility of failure, but of course if one fails it's easier to blame the equipment.

I swear, none of your rhetoric makes sense here. It's not about "blame". It's about working around inherent limitations. It's a statement of fact that if a hunter is in his stand and a buck is standing 300yds away, he can more easily shoot him with a modern rifle, wearing a modern optic. If he's sitting there with an iron sighted flintlock, all he can do is watch.

Lots of good hunters kill deer with sticks every year during archery season.

They certainly do. They also have to hunt harder because they're using inferior equipment. Their job would be easier with a modern rifle. Which is kinda the point here.

Heck with the deer population in KS IMHO using a modern bolt action 308 with today's optics isn't deer hunting it's deer shooting.

Hmmm, ya don't say.

 

[Hookeye]

An inline does not triple my range.

Have not played w the magnum stuff though.

My vision used to be exceptional.
So scopes were not much advantage.

Of course those days are gone LOL

But IMHO, in general, a good sidehammer percussion w roundball iron sights is a good 100 yard rig and a 4X iscoped inline w conical/pistol bullet is 150.
Of course, some folks could go past those without issue.

 

[CraigC]

300yds is not unheard of, depending on bullets used.

 

[Hookeye]

My Knight shot Rem 240gr pistol bullets in sabots, 100gr FFg and #11 ignition.
4 x scope.
It was an easy 150 yard rig. Shot great.

Unlike many internet hunters, I'd shoot deer (double lunged) and have em run off.
With that, the longer the distance the more hassle........in just finding where the trail starts.
Killing em aint the problem, finding what you killed could be.
I just don't need the stress.

Same stuff w roundball and sidehammers.

I use bigger bullets now, and aim to break a shoulder.

I'm cool w DRT, but also content w DROT.
Dislike DWOT