My .36 conical design

[TheOutlawKid]

Hey all i wanted to share my new design on a .36 conical that i had tom at accurate molds create. Many Months ago i had him create on due to the lack of navy caliber conicals on the market. Ive had great success with kaidos conicals but wanted something with larger lube grooves and something like an R.E.A.L bullet...but for navy caliber. So in my design i made a flat nosed connical with large lube grooves and tapered so that it aligns into the chambers perfectly straight. Works well in piettas and ubertis..the bottom band measures at .362, middle is .370 and top band is .380...and is .510 tall. i first had the bottom band at .360 but noticed it would barely make contact with the rifling of the barrel on some guns so i opened it up to .362 , although .360 would still have been fine due to the obturation of soft lead "bumping up" to fill the grooves. My original measurements were going to have the lower band at .368 and the middle band at .375 but that would only fit uberti chambers and/or piettas whos chambers had been reamed over their stock .367 chamber diameter. Its top band also acts as a fouling scraper to clear out flouling from the previous shot. Grooves also hold lots and lots of lube given that each are a tenth of an inch wide and pretty deep. They weigh out to exactly 130 grains...which gives it lots more knock down power. With 20-25 grains of powder and the 130 grain weight its pretty much like shooting a .44 army cap n ball. These bullets are tack drivers too...as accurate as kaidos and round ball. The kaidos give me round ball accuracy..and im now suprised these do as well. Heres a pic comparing them to kaido 140 grain conicals. Kaido conicals on the left and my conical design on the right.

 

[Erwan]

Thanks for sharing.

What is the twist and the distance for shooting ?
The twist rate of a Pietta is ~1:20 (before it was 1:30) then the stability must be something around 3.00 and good for 50yards with 20grains of 3Fg (like swiss Nr2)...

The mold was made with a lathe or a miller ?

Good job that's pretty nice...

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I get my molds made by tom at accuratemolds.com, and all my guns are piettas post cnc machining...not sure on the twist rate tho...friend also shot them in his 61 uberti and it was very accurate as well. We dont measure out distances...just kinda plinked around in the back yard shooting random targets. Oh and i shoot home made bp but its pretty similar to swiss, actually a bit faster and cleaner burning, when i do shoot store bought powder then its old eynsford.

 

[Erwan]

Accuratemolds.com I know this address with a very good catalogue I will ask them about shipping.

Yep, better than the swiss powder I can understand. This powder is the best powder that we can get where I live: powder making is forbidden by law. We can only have 2Kg (taking into account the cartridges) and it's very expensive...
We have to shoot in a sports club (obligation to) to get an buy powder and weapons, that's why I was talking about distance: shooting ranges are never less than 27, 55, 109 and 219 yards...

Anyway your moulds are very interesting and I wish you much pleasure with those news in .36 cal.
I note the dimensions given and the photos: that can be useful...

Have a nice day.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Erwan im in south texas, where are u located? Swiss and old eynsford are the best black powder brands we have here in the U.S. but i rarely ever buy any although i always keep some stocked i prefer to make my own black powder and it only costs me about $1.75 per pound for supplies. I buy pure potassium nitrate and sulfur but i make my own charcoal in a retort from specific woods. Mainly black willow or red alder charcoal are my main charcoals for making powder better than swiss. I will post a picture of my original design that i had t
Tom at accurate molds draw up.

 

[midland man]

Erwan im in south texas, where are u located? Swiss and old eynsford are the best black powder brands we have here in the U.S. but i rarely ever buy any although i always keep some stocked i prefer to make my own black powder and it only costs me about $1.75 per pound for supplies. I buy pure potassium nitrate and sulfur but i make my own charcoal in a retort from specific woods. Mainly black willow or red alder charcoal are my main charcoals for making powder better than swiss. I will post a picture of my original design that i had t
Tom at accurate molds draw up.

is tom offer this mold for sale on his website?

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Well i designed it and he put it up on his site. I told him what i wanted and gave him the measurements and he made the mold to my specifications. If u order it from him the way its on his site...it will be in my original measurements that i designed it for...which makes it a little too wide for use in piettas chambers...so u have to ask him to make the bottom band between .360-.364 bcuz my original design was .368 (most of my pietta chambers i had reamed larger to .373-.375, stock pietta chambers are .367-.368), unless ur shooting a uberti which has larger chambers then my original design measurements will work. I had my original design changed by also making it .010 inches taller too. My measurments are bottom band .362, middle band .370, top band .380 and .510 tall, each lube groove is .10 wide which holds plenty of lube...i have no binding or fouling issues and i usually use gatofeo #1 lube, emmerts lube, or now one of my new lubes made from raw shea butter and wax which outperforms both emmerts and gatofeo #1 lube...also helps that the top band scrapes clean the fouling from the previous shot.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

Very cool.

 

[rodwha]

Interesting for sure! I like that you added a wide meplat but curious as to why you feel you need large lube grooves.

I’d be very interested to see any chronographed results. I feel the old .38 cals got a bad name because of the RN they used with such a low velocity. From what I’ve seen claimed even at a low velocity the permanent wound cavity would be larger than caliber if only it had a wide meplat.

Intending on hunting with these?

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I havent chrono'd them due to my chronograph not exsisting at the moment. but they seem to hit almost just like kaidos conicals, seems like they may even have a bit more "punch" when it comes to contact with a target/object. They are very accurate too...and im a very huge fan of the navy caliber...its very underappreciated and very underestimated. With the right bullet and load it has great knockdown power, speed, and penetration. I gave it such wide lube grooves due to using Big Lubes .36 cal bullet and it allowed me to shoot all day without the use of wool wads or lube cookies...which is what i usually use when i shoot. The .36 big lube bullet has a single lube groove that measures about .10 so i figured if i made a larger bullet with two lube grooves that size then i wouldnt have to worry about using lube wads or cookies which takes up space that could be used for more bp. Its basically an R.E.AL. bullet scaled down and tapered to be used in a navy caliber revolver. Since it weighs 130 grains its almost as heavy as a .44 cal ball but the flat wide meplat gives it more "oomph" when it makes contact yet carries plenty of lube along the way and top band helps scrape the fouling from the previous shot...also if u have chamfered chambers and swage the bullet in then the wide .380 top band tightly fills the barrel lands and grooves and helps prevent/reduce blowby....i actually feel that it makes a tight seal when i shoot...if that makes any sense? Kaido conicals were all i used to shoot but now these are fast becoming my favorite. As far as hunting...i sure do plan on it ;-)

 

[rodwha]

I’m not convinced a cap b ball pistol needs a lot of lube. It’s a short barrel. I created a few bullet with Accurate myself for my .44/.45 pistols and a small lube groove has kept me shooting all day with some days going about 10 cylinders full each (paper cartridge days). I don’t use a cookie or a wad.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

I believe the .36 (.38) cal is under appreciated as well. Too many old school calibers used a RN with a heavy bullet at low velocities. It didn’t work all that well, but then they failed at the RN to begin with as it is known to create a smaller than caliber permanent wound channel at pistol velocities.

Initially I wanted something about the length of a ball (figured my repro would have the 1:30 slow twist unlike my ROA with the 1:16 twist) if for no other reason it wouldn’t rob from the powder capacity. However I found every projectile I shot liked the same powder charge (30 grns in my NMA and 35 in my ROA) so I feel I’ll modify my bullet and help fill the space with lead vs a filler for hunting.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Thats a nice bullet in the link...i actually have a .36 bullet similar to that but it has a .07 tall bottom heel and i use it to attach to the inside of paper cartridges...kinda like a colt cartridge works bullet only with a wide flat meplat. And i wanted the bullets to hold gobs of lube because of how i enjoyed the big lube bullets performance but it also helped me keep the bullet at my goal of 130 grains yet retain the dimentions i wanted. It actually made the bullet come out to exactly 130 grains which was surprising. I compared the amount of fouling compared to lees 130 grain conical and kaidos 140 grain conical (both have smaller similar lube grooves) and compared it to the fouling when using my bullet and the fouling was far less. I was using gatofeo #1 lube. Although to be fair and honest im not sure if its due to the larger lube grooves or the top band scraping out the fouling.

 

[PapaG]

Not a complaint or criticism but they look a little like the Lee REALs. Glad they work for you.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Yes...i mentioned that they are basically a scaled down tapered R.E.A.L

 

[rodwha]

Thats a nice bullet in the link...i actually have a .36 bullet similar to that but it has a .07 tall bottom heel and i use it to attach to the inside of paper cartridges...kinda like a colt cartridge works bullet only with a wide flat meplat. And i wanted the bullets to hold gobs of lube because of how i enjoyed the big lube bullets performance but it also helped me keep the bullet at my goal of 130 grains yet retain the dimentions i wanted. It actually made the bullet come out to exactly 130 grains which was surprising. I compared the amount of fouling compared to lees 130 grain conical and kaidos 140 grain conical (both have smaller similar lube grooves) and compared it to the fouling when using my bullet and the fouling was far less. I was using gatofeo #1 lube. Although to be fair and honest im not sure if its due to the larger lube grooves or the top band scraping out the fouling.

I’m not exactly happy with my design. Eventually I figure I’ll modify it.

Initially I wanted it about the length of a ball as A) I thought my NMA would have the slow 1:30 twist, and B) I didn’t want it to take up precious powder capacity. What I found out was that despite what projectile I used the more accurate powder charge didn’t seem to change. Now I’d like to elongate it to use lead as filler, especially since more mass equals more penetration, and with the estimated performance they’re both doing good as 30 grns (weighed 33 grns) of 3F Olde E would likely give me standard .45 ACP performance, and 35 grns (weighed 38 grns) is likely giving me +P performance.

I also would like the base to be longer so it sits more firmly in the chambers prior to seating.

I’ve contemplated reducing the meplat a bit from .375” (83%) as I’ve read they can become unstable further down range, but I’m no pistolero so I figure it’s still good within my abilities. And the larger the meplat the larger the permanent wound channel.

I have seen that cap n ball bullets don’t need to be quite as oversized as a ball so I’ll likely reduce the diameter to about .454”. No need to create lead rings (I want to chamfer my ROA chambers too and ream the NMA to .451-2” from the .449” they’ve been reamed to).

And one last thing is the length of the nose. With them being oversized a fair amount the top portion creates a very long driving band which, with added weight, will create additional pressure, and with thin repro walls I’d prefer to reduce it a bit.

Kaido’s .44/.45 cal bullets are modified Lee 255 grn bullets. Lee makes the molds for him (custom).

I can’t say that fouling has been a problem for me. I keep shooting and the groups don’t change. I, too, use Gatofeo’s #1 (on REALs and wads too, and I’ve read it works on patches too). I may enlongate the lube groove just a hair though, and thought about making it very large as I kinda want a Rem carbine or Buffalo with a stock. With a longer barrel I’d need more lube. But then a lube cookie or wad should work.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Im definately pro reaming and/or pro chamfering chambers to be at or just a few thousandths over groove diameter. I have seen a definate improvement after ive made those adjustments to my guns...although its mainly .44 armys that need it more so than the .36 navys considering theyre pretty close to groove diameter for the most part. But ill take any improvement i can get. For now all i own are navy caliber colt repros....they are by far my favorite...very versitile and ive always liked a smaller caliber that can have some true impressive potential brought out of it.

 

[rodwha]

I’ve always preferred larger calibers myself, but I feel I need an Uberti Pocket Police, and I’ve toyed with the idea of a Pietta Colt ‘51 as so many feel it’s the best pointing pistol. However I’ve thought that if I got one I’d modify it to .40-.41 cal as some of the test versions back in the day. And I’ve also considered a steel framed .44 cal Navy and getting a .36 cal barrel and cylinder.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I too have toyed with the idea of making a .36 into a .40 or .41...its actually something i want to do with my pietta 51 navy old silver. Im in the process of having the 7.5 inch barrel cut down to 6 inches...ive done it to one barrel and it makes such a huge difference. I have a "sheriff" 51' navy that they advertise as 5.5 inches but theyre actually 4 7/8ths or so..under 5 inches. The 60 and 61 sheriffs model are 5.5 inches tho...just not their 51's. I have no idea why they advertise them as 5.5 inches when theyre under 5 inches. It may seem like 3/4 of an inch or so shouldnt matter but to me it does. My 6 inch 51 barrel gives it that perfect not too long and not too short pointability and easier handling when pulling from a holster. I wonder if the stock navy cylinder has enough cylinder wall between chambers to safely shoot once bore out to .40/.41, or if id have to use a .44 cylinder and first have the chambers sleeved. Hmm the gears are turning in my head.

 

[rodwha]

I too have toyed with the idea of making a .36 into a .40 or .41...its actually something i want to do with my pietta 51 navy old silver. Im in the process of having the 7.5 inch barrel cut down to 6 inches...ive done it to one barrel and it makes such a huge difference. I have a "sheriff" 51' navy that they advertise as 5.5 inches but theyre actually 4 7/8ths or so..under 5 inches. The 60 and 61 sheriffs model are 5.5 inches tho...just not their 51's. I have no idea why they advertise them as 5.5 inches when theyre under 5 inches. It may seem like 3/4 of an inch or so shouldnt matter but to me it does. My 6 inch 51 barrel gives it that perfect not too long and not too short pointability and easier handling when pulling from a holster. I wonder if the stock navy cylinder has enough cylinder wall between chambers to safely shoot once bore out to .40/.41, or if id have to use a .44 cylinder and first have the chambers sleeved. Hmm the gears are turning in my head.

With modern revolvers I’ve always felt that a sidearm was ideally 4” so as to be easier handling and quicker to draw without being too short, and a primary hunting pistol with 6” or more for the sight radius and additional velocity as a slight bonus. With BP guns someone who cut back his Walker barrel felt that 3.5” was the minimum to get complete powder combustion, but IIRC, that was with a standard sized pistol’s load (30-40 grns of so). I’ve measured my base pin and feel I could cut my NMA to about 4 1/4” and still pull the pin forward enough to remove the cylinder. So I’ve considered that. And I’ve also considered cutting back my ROA from 7.5” as it’s what I’ve felt was what I’d prefer on my hip were I to need to track a wounded hog. But it also feels as though I should one day try it as a primary with a good rest so I’m hesitant to cut it.

There’s a fellow who has reamed his Navy to .40 cal from .36. I don’t recall what he did with the barrel, but I think he had it lined. He also turned a .36 Rem into a .41 and replaced the barrel on that one.

Back on topic what is the powder and charge you use with this 130 grn bullet? I’m a bit curious what kind of performance it’s likely producing.

A fellow on another forum used Accurate to create a 100 grn .36 cal and with 20 grns of 3F Olde E is producing lower level .380 ACP performance (about 180 ft/lbs). I’ve been considering a 90-100 grn WFN for the day I obtain that Police model. Not sure if I’d create a shorter than caliber bullet or caliber length for that. More powder seems nice with such a small chamber.

Also toyed with the idea of a Spiller & Burr version instead of the Police.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Im using 21-25 grains of powder, the performance im getting as far as accuracy and penetration is great. I havent fully tested it as far as shooting different medias or using a chrono etc as i dont have a means to at this moment. Say..do you have a chrono and/or a .36 cal, some free time, and ways to test? Would you be interested in testing them out and giving us all an unbiased opinion and showing ur results? Not sure if you have access to do it...but id sure like someone elses results and opinion. And speaking of changing barrels and reaming to a .40 on a 58' remington, ive actually been wanting to get a brass bodied short barrel .44 remington from cabelas and chanhing out the barrel and cylinder to make it a .36...it would cost more than what its worth but ive always wanted a brass frame remmie in navy caliber...and even better if i made it a .40-.41 cal. Im just not to familiar with remmies...open tops i can slick up all day long and know them inside and out bur remmies are uncharted waters for me. The barrels on remmies can be removed and replaced right? From what i THINK i remember researching is that it takes quite a bit of effort. It would match a Henry yellow boy very well. You have got me seriously thinking of getting a couple of my 51's worked over to .40-.41

 

[rodwha]

I need a chronograph as well. I’ve actually sent out several boxes of bullets to people who used the same powders and had the same guns, but only one posted his results, which were a bit lower than what I expected.

I’d actually like to get two chronographs eventually so that I can determine the BCs of various bullets.

Yes you can remove the barrel from a Remington as they are threaded. I hear it’s a bear to break free though.

I can certainly see the allure of having a pistol to pair with a Henry.

 

[Navy Six 2]

Outlaw Kid, what is the catalog number of your bullet mold from Accurate? I just looked at # 37-130M and # 38-130R, both of which look similar to your design but the dimensions aren't quite the same. I would like to order this mold from Tom which is why I ask. Thanks for this information on your design. I am also a fan of the Navy .36 and would like to use this bullet at Cowboy matches. I have always thought a heavier bullet was just what the .36 needed and your tapered design looks like it fills the bill.

 

[arcticap]

As appealing as it sounds, there seems to be a gap in round ball molds from Lee and Lyman for making round balls in the .40 - .41 sizes.
There are .395 factory balls and Track sells cast balls in .395, .410 and .424, but who knows if those are made from discontinued or custom molds or not.
I cannot find any buckshot in the .40-.41 caliber range.
Even the Clements Ruger .50 Custom Conversion actually uses .490 round balls.

It would seem that a .40 -.41 conversion would be asking mostly for a conical shooter with the only balls possibly readily available being from Track of the Wolf
if they even make the correct size.

It may be like building a wildcat caliber unless only shooting conicals.
And it seems that only Hornady makes factory .395 balls since Speer doesn't make them, with the next larger size being .433.
If round balls were widely available, then one would think that an Italian outfit would make a .39 - .41 cap & ball revolver.

 

[rodwha]

For revolvers and small chambers, and because I intend mine for hunting, a bullet is what I want as A) I would give a wide meplat which will create a much larger permanent wound channel, B) have mass for ensuring good penetration, and C) keep me from needing felt wads.

I am not against the use of a ball for hunting, and intend on it in my .50 cal rifle that will still likely create a smaller wound channel than my WFN .45 at intended ranges (100 yds on the rifle and 15 yds on the revolver). But I would be torn on what I’d use if I were to use a Plains Pistol and did buy a used 250 grn Lee mold for the eventuality.

The fellow who modified both of those revolvers uses modern bullet molds for his needs. I think he uses a resizing die to create a smaller base.

 

[rodwha]

The .40 cal Colt was just a very small run of something like 4 pistols. Not sure why the government chose .36 over .40. Less lead? Felt the .36 was plenty for men? The .36 clearly was used plenty by the armies.

We’ve often read of heard of the ball being said to take the fight out of a man whereas the conicals would zip on through leaving plenty of fight. I’m convinced this was due to the pointed nose on the conicals. We’ve seen that this will allow the flesh to stretch and create a smaller than caliber hole. A ball, when seen effecting gel, we see something roughly caliber sized. A WFN, even traveling slow, creates a larger than caliber hole.

A fellow on another forum has even created HPs and used epoxy on his ram so seating won’t deform the cavities. Interesting for sure.